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Senate Healthcare Bill Released (zombied for now)

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chanson78

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

GreatMarch said:
I think what is untrue is calling RomneyCare a success in Massachusetts and comparing ObamaCare to RomneyCare.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...-romneycare/hxkIrY0Y0o2FmjVfrjxNhL/story.html
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That link is behind a paywall. Here is a different link:

‘RomneyCare’ Facts and Falsehoods

Edit:

Or here is one from Forbes:

If ObamaCare Is So Bad, How Does RomneyCare Survive?

Now I will grant you that after merging with the ACA RomneyCare isn't exactly going gangbusters.

In the interest in not trying to present only one side, the ACA transition didn't exactly do RomneyCare any favors.

How ObamaCare is killing RomneyCare

But I maintain the original point. RomneyCare was a Republican plan, the ACA was very similar. To say the ACA wasn't based on Republican ideas is just false.
 
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Tidewater

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

chanson78 said:
You said:
[/FONT][/COLOR]

That fundamentally isn't true. There is a difference between a bill that is chock full of Republican principles and yet deciding to call it a Democrat-only creation because no Republicans voted for it.
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I'm sorry, it fundamentally is true.
Unless you want to argue that those Republicans were mentally so superior to their Democratic colleagues that they used some form of mind control to force Democrats to vote for a bad bill despite themselves.
As for the state bill vs federal bill, states can constitutionally do whatever is not prohibited to them in Art. I, Sect. 10 (and their state constitution), but the federal government can constitutionally exercise only those powers expressly delegated to it. Healthcare would be a prime example. Not forbidden to Massachusetts, not allowed to the federal government.
 
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chanson78

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

Tidewater said:
I'm sorry, it fundamentally is true.
Unless you want to argue that those Republicans were mentally so superior to their Democratic colleagues that they used some form of mind control to force Democrats to vote for a bad bill despite themselves.
As for the state bill vs federal bill, states can constitutionally do whatever is not prohibited to them in Art. I, Sect. 10 (and their state constitution), but the federal government can constitutionally exercise only those powers expressly delegated to it. Healthcare would be a prime example. Not forbidden to Massachusetts, not allowed to the federal government.
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So essentially you are saying that Republican principles change based upon where they are being enacted.

RomneyCare at the state level, chock full of Republican principles.
RomneyCare (if they just copied it wholesale) at the federal level, Democrat because the federal government has no authority.

What does that make the current House and Senate Republican health care bills? I saw an awful lot of Republicans support both. But I guess technically since only the House passed theirs, we still may have some Republican senators?
 
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GreatMarch

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

chanson78 said:
So essentially you are saying that Republican principles change based upon where they are being enacted.
RomneyCare at the state level, chock full of Republican principles.
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What are the specific Republican principles that you speak of? The original intent of providing government subsidized catastrophic health coverage under RomneyCare? Or, the added minimum coverage requirements and taxation (or was that fees and/or penalties?) from the mandate that MIT Economics professor Jonathan Gruber wrote into RomneyCare? Surely, you are not saying that Gruber espoused Republican principles in his writing and rewriting of RomneyCare.
 
C

chanson78

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

GreatMarch said:
What are the specific Republican principles that you speak of? The original intent of providing government subsidized catastrophic health coverage under RomneyCare? Or, the added minimum coverage requirements and taxation (or was that fees and/or penalties?) from the mandate that MIT Economics professor Jonathan Gruber wrote into RomneyCare? Surely, you are not saying that Gruber espoused Republican principles in his writing and rewriting of RomneyCare.
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The individual health insurance mandate for one.

History of the Individual Health Insurance Mandate, 1989-2010

Or from the Heritage Foundation

Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans
 
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uafanataum

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

chanson78 said:
There is a problem with your position. In essence the Democrats did that with the ACA. They took what was for a long time the Republican plan and adapted it. Everyone knows Democrats really believe it should be single-payer system for all. So, trying to get something done, they brought in the ACA, which was an adaptation of Romney's successful Republican healthcare plan in Massachusetts.

So this bill, which is to fix the problems with the ACA because they had no input from Republicans to get buy-in on the first go around, is an attempt to fix a Republican plan that was enacted by Democrats. I am not sure you can say that isn't an attempt to work with the other side. Oh, it is also important to remember that Yertle the Turtle decided the Republicans weren't going to work with Obama no matter the subject, and decided to stick his obstructionist head in the sand.

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but where exactly is all of this "both sides are only interested in making the other look bad" stuff coming from?

Now, that isn't to say that the Democrats have not been dragging their feet on stuff for Trump. But when you look at both the House and Senate versions of the health care bills, there is absolutely no way you can even pretend to say that it isn't just a victory lap by the Republicans where they will remove insurance from > 20M Americans that currently have it, to give a tax break to 400 households and some large corporations.
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I think the Democrats should have tried the ACA type bill with the last 2 years of Bush in office. After the republicans lost the house, Senate, and white house they became more combative and have tried to focus on differences more than similarities. With the Democrats controlling Congress the last 2 years of Bush's presidency there was more room for compromise.
 
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GreatMarch

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

chanson78 said:
The individual health insurance mandate for one.

History of the Individual Health Insurance Mandate, 1989-2010

Or from the Heritage Foundation

Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans
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The individual mandate might be a Republican concession to play to the emotions of the health care debate, but it is not a principle.
Now if you are talking about a mandate of catastrophic care coverage so as to end the practice of hospitals billing insurance companies $20 plus for aspirin and $250 plus for a blanket, then to see the insurance companies pass the costs off to its premium payers, then I might concede that. In much the same way that states require automobile owners to carry coverage, to not make themselves whole due to an accident, but to protect the victim under liability coverage.
An individual mandate with minimum requirements including maternity, pediatric and psychiatric care (none of which apply to the individual known as me) is not a Republican principle and I would argue is not an American principle.
 
Tidewater

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

chanson78 said:
So essentially you are saying that Republican principles change based upon where they are being enacted.
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Yes, that is what I'm saying. Some things that states can do the federal government is prohibited from doing.
Some things the federal government can do the state are prohibited from doing.
The difference is that federal powers require a specific delegation (i.e. an enumeration in the Constitution) and state powers, to be disallowed, require a prohibition in the federal Constitution or that state's constitution.
Google "Elliot's Debates," pick a state and read a bit.
chanson78 said:
RomneyCare at the state level, chock full of Republican principles.
RomneyCare (if they just copied it wholesale) at the federal level, Democrat because the federal government has no authority.

What does that make the current House and Senate Republican health care bills? I saw an awful lot of Republicans support both. But I guess technically since only the House passed theirs, we still may have some Republican senators?
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That's the problem with every violation of the Constitution. Anyone who says let's stick to the enumerated powers gets met with "You're going to take away people's health care!" argument. You kind of have to take the precedent into account.
This is how we end up with a $19 trillion debt and a Code of Federal Regulations that has grown from 22,877 pages in 68 volumes to 175,496 pages in 235 volumes at year-end 2013.
Actually urging that the Constitution be followed is considered "quaint."

But back to my second point, there were no Republican votes on Obamacare so this is a Democratic problem, unless the Republicans enact some amendment (ideally with some Democratic help, so we have some kind of bipartisanship).
 
rgw

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

Everything discussed about this is a farce in my opinion. Money is fake, people's health is real. Figure it out.
 
CharminTide

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

McConnell is delaying the GOP's healthcare vote because McCain was in the hospital being emergently treated for a blood clot in his eye. Once he's back, they can vote to eliminate the ability for millions of Americans to undergo the same blindness-preventing surgery.

LINK
 
cuda.1973

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

Heard a new one, to refer to him as: Mitch McColostomy.

Which is an insult, to my friends, who are burdened by having undergone that horrible procedure. But, pretty much describes in his innards.
 
TIDE-HSV

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

cuda.1973 said:
Heard a new one, to refer to him as: Mitch McColostomy.

Which is an insult, to my friends, who are burdened by having undergone that horrible procedure. But, pretty much describes in his innards.
Click to expand...
How about "Cristobal no-Colon?" :D
 
cuda.1973

cuda.1973

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

CharminTide said:
Mike Lee and Jerry Moran announced their opposition to the Senate bill, so it's dead for now.
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It is official now, since I read it on TrumpBart!

Seems Drumpf is now behind repeal now, and.................? (Hopefully, nothing later. Because they will screw it up.)

Since they already did that, around 60 times, when it had no chance of being signed, we'll see how the republicants come up with excuses why they can't now.
 
CharminTide

CharminTide

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

jk, McConnell just now announced that he wants to repeal the ACA and replace it with... something else... at some point in the future.

It's unclear to me whether a straight repeal would abide by reconciliation rules.
 
2003TIDE

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

CharminTide said:
jk, McConnell just now announced that he wants to repeal the ACA and replace it with... something else... at some point in the future.

It's unclear to me whether a straight repeal would abide by reconciliation rules.
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It's fun watching McConnell deal with what he's created. Like I said after a decade of obstructionism and voting no, they don't have a clue how to actually pass something.
 
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