Masterpiece Cakeshop Is Fighting for the First Amendment, Not Against Gay Marriage

crimsonaudio

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I think you are taking personal freedom too far. Nobody should have to worry about being served in any business open to the public. I lived through the 50s. I may not have understood that then but I certainly understand that now.
That's fair - part of my view likely comes from my relative youth and having never have lived through that period. Likewise I've lived a vast majority of my life as a white man living metropolitan suburbs, so that frames my view of things.

I'm aware that my view likely wouldn't work in the real world, simply because there are enough bigoted people that we may well end up sliding backwards to the 1950s.

This discussion did stray rather far from the original subject matter and I'm the cause of a lot of that, but suffice to say I still support the SCOTUS decision handed down today. There is a middle ground somewhere (whether it's simply defined by necessity vs want, etc) that needs to be found as while I'd not have handled this situation like the baker, I think he should have the right to not have his business associated with something he feels reflects poorly on it.
 
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dayhiker

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That's fair - part of my view likely comes from my relative youth and having never have lived through that period. Likewise I've lived a vast majority of my life as a white man living metropolitan suburbs, so that frames my view of things.

I'm aware that my view likely wouldn't work in the real world, simply because there are enough bigoted people that we may well end up sliding backwards to the 1950s.

This discussion did stray rather far from the original subject matter and I'm the cause of a lot of that, but suffice to say I still support the SCOTUS decision handed down today. There is a middle ground somewhere (whether it's simply defined by necessity vs want, etc) that needs to be found as while I'd not have handled this situation like the baker, I think he should have the right to now have his business associated with something he feels reflects poorly on it.
One of the reasons I enjoy your insights is that you are willing to qualify that it's based on your view from where you sit, describe the view from where you sit, and then say that you could be wrong. I've enjoyed reading your comments about this on the last couple of pages.
 

Chukker Veteran

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That's fair - part of my view likely comes from my relative youth and having never have lived through that period. Likewise I've lived a vast majority of my life as a white man living metropolitan suburbs, so that frames my view of things.

I'm aware that my view likely wouldn't work in the real world, simply because there are enough bigoted people that we may well end up sliding backwards to the 1950s.
I can understand your position, I think. But I'm glad to see you understand what I'm getting at too.
 

dayhiker

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As I've repeatedly stated over the years, I think any business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason (though I agree with the caveat that they must not have a monopoly on said service and it cannot be a life saving service they offer).

So yeah, I agree with this decision, though as a Christian I would have baked the cake - I can't think of a better way to show people that you love them than to serve them.
This sums it all up for me.
 

AlexanderFan

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it's fairly simple until you are one of a few black or jewish or gay or etc. families in a rural area and nobody will provide you with service.
Wouldn't happen. The event would be plastered all over social media in moments and the pressure would force a change.

The alternative is to allow the government to control private businesses that were funded by private owners. That's not an option at all.


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AlexanderFan

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"Waggoner said Phillips is willing to sell ready-made products to anyone who enters his store. But, "he simply declines to express messages or celebrate events that violate his deeply held beliefs," she said."

There is the jist. He refused to personalize a cake for an event against his beliefs. If I remember correctly his moral compass was pretty consistent in regards to bachelorette parties and even Halloween cakes.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chic...t-wedding-cake-ruling-20180604-story,amp.html


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92tide

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Wouldn't happen. The event would be plastered all over social media in moments and the pressure would force a change.

The alternative is to allow the government to control private businesses that were funded by private owners. That's not an option at all.


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you're presenting a false choice, it's not all or nothing.
 

92tide

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i guess this sort of fits here. this religious liberty crap is going to be front and center in georgia's elections this year.

Project Blitz: the legislative assault by Christian nationalists to reshape America (Guardian Article)


In Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Louisiana and Tennessee, so-called “In God We Trust” bills have become law since 2017, which will see the phrase emblazoned on public buildings, hung in schools and displayed on the side of public vehicles including police cars.

But the Project Blitz playbook sees those largely symbolic bills as just the first stage on the way to more hardline laws. They are presented as measures to preserve religious liberty, but are intended to give businesses, pastors and childcare providers the right to discriminate against LGBT people in line with their “sincerely held religious beliefs”.
...

“I think that it is due to the promotion of Project Blitz. They have sent this playbook to state legislators and told them that these In God We Trust bills are the first step.”

She added: “Some would see these bills as very trivial and unimportant, but even the most simple or trivial bills would really undermine American religious freedom and separation of church and state, and undermine the promise of our public schools that kids are welcome, whether they are religious or non-religious, whether they are evangelical Christians or not.”

...
Barton told legislators on the call: “They are gonna be things people yell at, but they help move the ball down the court, really if we can do this, get this going with all the states, it’s kind of like whack-a-mole for the other side, it’ll drive ‘em crazy that they’ll have to divide their resources out in opposing this.”

Category two include bills for a range of proclamations or resolutions – declaring a religious freedom day or Christian heritage week that can then be used to get religious teaching into schools. The playbook adds: “If any legislator opposes this, it will be helpful to get him or her on the record against this heritage and freedom.”

Category three bills will have the greatest impact but will be “the most hotly contested” the playbook says – they include resolutions in favour of “biblical values concerning marriage and sexuality”, such as “establishing public policy favoring adoption by intact heterosexual, marriage-based families” and “establishing public policy favoring intimate sexual relations only between married, heterosexual couples”.
 
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AlexanderFan

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you're presenting a false choice, it's not all or nothing.
Name any policy our government has enacted that stayed within it's original confines. Every Government policy expands beyond it's original boundaries, it's why I oppose any breach of the Amendments.


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AlexanderFan

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As far as I'm concerned this falls in line with trying to force a Hindu to fry a hamburger for you when there's a premade one already in his store, or trying to make a Muslim BBQ joint smoke you a Boston butt personally. The guy didn't refuse to provide service, he refused to personalize a cake for a same sex marriage, which he believes is against his religious values.

Honestly, I'm not going to a Hindu to fry a burger or a Muslim for pork, so I kind of agree with Matt Walsh that this whole ordeal feels like a set up. There are plenty of bakers in Colorado who wouldn't even blink at making their cake, why force an unwilling person to participate?


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92tide

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As far as I'm concerned this falls in line with trying to force a Hindu to fry a hamburger for you when there's a premade one already in his store, or trying to make a Muslim BBQ joint smoke you a Boston butt personally. The guy didn't refuse to provide service, he refused to personalize a cake for a same sex marriage, which he believes is against his religious values.

Honestly, I'm not going to a Hindu to fry a burger or a Muslim for pork, so I kind of agree with Matt Walsh that this whole ordeal feels like a set up. There are plenty of bakers in Colorado who wouldn't even blink at making their cake, why force an unwilling person to participate?


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i don't think the comparison works because a muslim bbq joint likely wouldn't be selling pork to anyone and likewise a hindu joint beef. that would be like asking a body shop and tire place run by an atheist to sell you a bath mat and matching towel set with "jesus saves" embroidered on it and saying they are discriminating against your religion when they refuse.

and to the baker's stance that this is about religious values, i may start giving them the benefit of the doubt that this has anything to with religious values when i see them refusing service to other "sinners" and not just one type of "sinner"
 

Its On A Slab

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i don't think the comparison works because a muslim bbq joint likely wouldn't be selling pork to anyone and likewise a hindu joint beef. that would be like asking a body shop and tire place run by an atheist to sell you a bath mat and matching towel set with "jesus saves" embroidered on it and saying they are discriminating against your religion when they refuse.

and to the baker's stance that this is about religious values, i may start giving them the benefit of the doubt that this has anything to with religious values when i see them refusing service to other "sinners" and not just one type of "sinner"
Also, what happens when someone comes along and says they don't want to allow a mixed-race couple to rent one of their apts, or purchase their real estate - citing Biblical constraints on mixing of the races(I seem to recall some of my Sunday School teachers making that claim during my youth....that the Bible condemned the mixing of the races)?

So, are Fair Housing laws fair game now?

I know it might be a ridiculous thing to ponder, but is it not beyond the pale to consider - given the hard-line many right-wing religious folks take on Old Testament/Iron Age pronouncements?
 

AlexanderFan

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i don't think the comparison works because a muslim bbq joint likely wouldn't be selling pork to anyone and likewise a hindu joint beef. that would be like asking a body shop and tire place run by an atheist to sell you a bath mat and matching towel set with "jesus saves" embroidered on it and saying they are discriminating against your religion when they refuse.

and to the baker's stance that this is about religious values, i may start giving them the benefit of the doubt that this has anything to with religious values when i see them refusing service to other "sinners" and not just one type of "sinner"
From what I read (this has been dragging on a while) he doesn't do risque cakes for occasions and might have even refrained from Halloween stuff. I don't think this is his first refusal based on his principles, just the one that got the most notoriety.


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92tide

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Also, what happens when someone comes along and says they don't want to allow a mixed-race couple to rent one of their apts, or purchase their real estate - citing Biblical constraints on mixing of the races(I seem to recall some of my Sunday School teachers making that claim during my youth....that the Bible condemned the mixing of the races)?

So, are Fair Housing laws fair game now?

I know it might be a ridiculous thing to ponder, but is it not beyond the pale to consider - given the hard-line many right-wing religious folks take on Old Testament/Iron Age pronouncements?
i think that the stuff that falls under federal protected classes wont be messed with. but it won't be from lack of trying.
 

AlexanderFan

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Also, what happens when someone comes along and says they don't want to allow a mixed-race couple to rent one of their apts, or purchase their real estate - citing Biblical constraints on mixing of the races(I seem to recall some of my Sunday School teachers making that claim during my youth....that the Bible condemned the mixing of the races)?

So, are Fair Housing laws fair game now?

I know it might be a ridiculous thing to ponder, but is it not beyond the pale to consider - given the hard-line many right-wing religious folks take on Old Testament/Iron Age pronouncements?
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_interracialMarriage.htm

It's a reach to interpret the verses that way. The verses are more geared towards non-believers and pulling you away from Christ. Stupid will be stupid, however.


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AlexanderFan

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i don't think the comparison works because a muslim bbq joint likely wouldn't be selling pork to anyone and likewise a hindu joint beef. that would be like asking a body shop and tire place run by an atheist to sell you a bath mat and matching towel set with "jesus saves" embroidered on it and saying they are discriminating against your religion when they refuse.

and to the baker's stance that this is about religious values, i may start giving them the benefit of the doubt that this has anything to with religious values when i see them refusing service to other "sinners" and not just one type of "sinner"
Ok, a Muslim singer who refuses to perform at a Christian wedding. I still support any person's right to refuse money as long as there is no monopoly or someone isn't in danger.


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Its On A Slab

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http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_interracialMarriage.htm

It's a reach to interpret the verses that way. The verses are more geared towards non-believers and pulling you away from Christ. Stupid will be stupid, however.


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It's not such a reach when you see that many use the Old Testament as a cafeteria plan. The dung-eating and child murder stuff and stoning of children and prohibitions of eating shellfish, wearing polyester, etc - all get thrown out. Not to mention the things Jesus had to say about divorce - when he said absolutely zilch about same-sex relations. But we get to keep the stuff we want to keep.

But I agree, the race-mixing prohibition was a reach. But one of many reaches that continue to this day.
 

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