Masterpiece Cakeshop Is Fighting for the First Amendment, Not Against Gay Marriage

crimsonaudio

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and to the baker's stance that this is about religious values, i may start giving them the benefit of the doubt that this has anything to with religious values when i see them refusing service to other "sinners" and not just one type of "sinner"
The fact that he didn't refuse them service, just didn't want to do the cake, combined with his other convictions (he refuses to make Halloween decorated items, for example) make me believe his stance is genuine. And that's why I say there has to be some sort of middle ground, especially when we're talking about services that are luxuries, not necessities.
 

TIDE-HSV

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The fact that he didn't refuse them service, just didn't want to do the cake, combined with his other convictions (he refuses to make Halloween decorated items, for example) make me believe his stance is genuine. And that's why I say there has to be some sort of middle ground, especially when we're talking about services that are luxuries, not necessities.
I agree with this, excluding, of course, the monopoly and public safety carve-outs...
 

92tide

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The fact that he didn't refuse them service, just didn't want to do the cake, combined with his other convictions (he refuses to make Halloween decorated items, for example) make me believe his stance is genuine. And that's why I say there has to be some sort of middle ground, especially when we're talking about services that are luxuries, not necessities.
his stance may or may not be genuine, but this is part of a larger push with the "religious liberty" bills that are popping up everywhere that are aiming to legitimize discrimination based on "sincerely held religious beliefs". this is being brought to us by the same folks that brought up the gay marriage nonsense in 2002 and 2004, prop 8, and the bathroom bills, etc. and for the same purpose.
 

crimsonaudio

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his stance may or may not be genuine, but this is part of a larger push with the "religious liberty" bills that are popping up everywhere that are aiming to legitimize discrimination based on "sincerely held religious beliefs". this is being brought to us by the same folks that brought up the gay marriage nonsense in 2002 and 2004, prop 8, and the bathroom bills, etc. and for the same purpose.
Yes, there are absolutely groups trying too marginalize others in the name of religious liberty. you'll get no argument from me on that one.

But the bold part above - if he truly is genuine, and if the whole thing went down as we're told (I've heard nothing from the couple wanting the cake that disagrees that he offered to serve them in other ways), is why we do need to have some discussion about this. Not everyone who is like this guy hates gay people and/or wants them marginalized.
 

NationalTitles18

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What do we do when the rights of two people are in conflict? Whose side do we choose? Do we force one or the other to completely cave? Do we choose based on our own values and preferences with no consideration for others?

That's a false choice and is just as intolerant as anything either side claims to be against.

It's one thing to flat out refuse any service. It's quite another to refuse to join your celebration or make a statement that goes against your conscience.

SCOTUS made the right call and for a valid reason (a biased commission in CO) but did not touch the 1A issues. The 1A isn't just a collection of disjointed rights. Although not mentioned, the broader context of the 1A is the freedom of conscience. It states that you have a right to express your conscience in a meaningful way of your choosing. Protests, the press, speech, religion are all just avenues of expression of the inner conscience and government is prohibited from restraining those expressions.

On the other side, the 14A states that Congress may make law to ensure equal protection of rights and privileges. Congress chose to do this in the CRA of 1964 and through subsequent amendments of that law. Additionally, nothing prevents a state from going further in those protections than Congress has decided to go. Congress has not given sexual orientation protected status but CO did.

The problem CO has was that it failed to even consider religious freedom - or rather that it did and summarily dismissed it without proper consideration.

So again, back to conflicting rights.

Sometimes the best solution is compromise, but few seem willing to do that on either side. Compromise is seen as a loss and only total victory over "the others" will be tolerated. There is no respect for others, their rights, their conscience - Only intolerance and vengeance for those who dare to express their own conscience.

So we will either go to war - figurative or literal - over this or we will compromise.

It seems reasonable that refusal of any service goes against the spirit (and in some places the letter) of the law (and against the spirit of America itself, IMHO).

However, forcing another to violate his conscience also goes against the spirit (and everywhere the letter) of the law (and against the spirit of America itself, IMHO).

So the compromise would be to balance the conflicting rights as best we can. IMHO that means not allowing outright refusal of any and all services while not forcing anyone to make expressions or participate in actions that violate their conscience.

Reasonable people can agree that taking a cake off the shelf and selling it to anyone would not violate the reasonable conscience.

Reasonable people can agree that making an expression or joining in certain actions very well may violate a reasonable person's conscience.

So there is the line of compromise.

No one loses. No one wins, but really everyone wins.

And government does not pick whose inalienable rights fall by the wayside. Government upholds the rights of everyone.

In a completely rational world, CA's view wins. We don't live in that world so compromise is necessary to protect the rights of minorities, whether that minority is defined by sexual orientation or by religious views (or other protected statuses).

We as a nation have always attempted (whether truly or by lip service) to protect the rights of dissenters and conscientious objectors. Do we really want to throw that away?

I don't agree with the baker's stance, but I agree with his right to take a different stance than me since no one will be physically harmed by his actions/inactions. There will always be someone willing to make a decorated cake and if you can't hire someone you can make it yourself or buy one off the shelf and decorate it to your liking.

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated (or destroyed) should not be the America we strive toward.
 
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81usaf92

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Here is a hypothetical... what if a Neo Nazi couple went into a Jewish bakery and demanded the baker to bake a wedding cake with a swastika and SS on it. Would you side with the baker if they refused?

I’m in the middle with this debate, but I’m probably more with CA in that I believe the best way to combat private business discrimination is with your dollar and not with the courts or discrimination boards. But at the same time a small town ,like let’s say Childersburg , could realistically have a bunch of private businesses band together and create an environment of discriminatory practices that is locally acceptable.
 

MattinBama

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I’m in the middle with this debate, but I’m probably more with CA in that I believe the best way to combat private business discrimination is with your dollar and not with the courts or discrimination boards. But at the same time a small town ,like let’s say Childersburg , could realistically have a bunch of private businesses band together and create an environment of discriminatory practices that is locally acceptable.
Same with me on this one.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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Here is a hypothetical... what if a Neo Nazi couple went into a Jewish bakery and demanded the baker to bake a wedding cake with a swastika and SS on it. Would you side with the baker if they refused?

I’m in the middle with this debate, but I’m probably more with CA in that I believe the best way to combat private business discrimination is with your dollar and not with the courts or discrimination boards. But at the same time a small town ,like let’s say Childersburg , could realistically have a bunch of private businesses band together and create an environment of discriminatory practices that is locally acceptable.
I am too although probably slightly left of middle. I actually understand the argument for this very specific case in a way.

However, the problem with that type of analogy is 2 fold. 1. LGBTQ to Christians is not even close to the same as Nazis to Jews. and 2. Being gay isn't an offensive belief system its literally just a part of who someone is.
 

81usaf92

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I am too although probably slightly left of middle. I actually understand the argument for this very specific case in a way.

However, the problem with that type of analogy is 2 fold. 1. LGBTQ to Christians is not even close to the same as Nazis to Jews. and 2. Being gay isn't an offensive belief system its literally just a part of who someone is.
Then I take it that you aren’t of the belief that WBC and the like should be associated with the Christian faith. Because they clearly interpret it as offensive to their way of life.

But to me personally, I believe if I had religious objections I would’ve said that I’m booked and gave a reference to a baker that would do it.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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Then I take it that you aren’t of the belief that WBC and the like should be associated with the Christian faith. Because they clearly interpret it as offensive to their way of life.

But to me personally, I believe if I had religious objections I would’ve said that I’m booked and gave a reference to a baker that would do it.
I mean, Nazi's kinda did more than just find Jews offensive...

But no I don't normally consider WBC as part of mainstream Christianity.
 

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