Link: Ranking CNS BAMA teams ...

selmaborntidefan

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Okay, but Chavis led defenses didn't let Johnny do jack the two years he played is the point.
OK, he stopped Manziel. Sometimes - for whatever reason - a particular DC knows exactly what to do to stop a particular offense. I remember when Joe Lee Dunn's name was mentioned every single SEC broadcast.

But he was worse against other particular foes, too. In 2013, he stopped Manziel but then his D gave up 38 to us and 44 to UGA.



2011-2014 the SEC was basically Bama and LSU or who can win a wild game late. I think the Bama defensive numbers were a bit inflated by inferior competition and the long time perception that the SEC was better than anyone else.
One can, of course, argue our 2011 schedule was on the weak side. That much is true. But one would be hard-pressed to say that makes a substantial difference, too. In 2011, the SEC was 6-3 in bowl games and one of those losses was inevitable due to it being two SEC teams playing for the title. The Big 12 was essentially the same at 6-2.

But then comes the inconvenient truth that Arkansas - who lost to both Alabama and LSU by 24 points - pretty much manhandled a Kansas St team that was seven points less than the Big 12 champ and was the 2nd best team in the league. Our 3rd best team blistered their second best team. Wisky and Michigan St may as well have been co-champions, too, since the two teams were 1-1, the differences were six and three points but Wisky won the conference title game so they went to the Rose Bowl.

Michigan St needed overtime to beat a team that Boise St manhandled, USCe beat, and LSU beat by 32 despite only playing about 1/2 of the game.

LSU thumped an Oregon team that Auburn's mediocre defense (for the most part the same team) had beaten in January and thumped WVA, the Big East co-champion who hung 70 on Clemson in the bowl game.

maybe cfb WAS weak in 2011......but that team drilled all but one team put in front of them, too.



Against good offenses our defenses between 2012-2014 and some in 2015 got gashed.
2014, I concur.

But to my simple mind CONTEXT is everything. If you go look at team stats, our defense in virtually every game in 2012 and 2013 (save the last two) held teams DOUBLE DIGITS BELOW their average ppg. They not only held them below but by 10 or more points. While I realize ATM got 29 points against us in 2012, that offense averaged 44.5 ppg, meaning we still held them 15 points below their average. Even if we drop their pathetic OOC games, they still averaged 39.3 ppg - and we held them to 29. I'm not arguing this suggests an ELITE defense, but contextually it was still pretty good.

In 2015, only 3 opponents scored more than 17 points against us: Clemson, Ole Miss, and ATM. Our defense was so bad against ATM that it gave up TWO touchdowns and returned THREE pick sixes. The defense scored more touchdowns than they gave up. That sounds pretty good to me. Ole Miss? Well, talk about a freak show. Well, let's look closely at it: Ole Miss was four of 14 on third down conversions and only had 16 first downs. They started their first drive of the game at our 17 and only got three points. They got a touchdown on a drive they started at our 26. They got a touchdown on a drive they started at our 18.

In the second half, they got another touchdown on that insane "nobody with a brain would have thrown this ball" that accounted for 75 yards - a fortuitous bounce was 15% of their yards for the entire game. I just can't really blame that nonsense on the defense. They got another TD of 73 yards on the illegal pass play. So....32% of their total yardage (66 and 73) came on a play that should have been called back and a bounce that couldn't be controlled. That's nearly 1/3 of their yardage for the entire game on TWO PLAYS.

Throw in the fact that the first four turnovers killed us (the last was just cosmetic damage) - I just have a VERY hard time blaming that loss on the DEFENSE. 17 points on three early turnovers and another 13 on an illegal play and a bounce.

Now, Clemson is the best case for 2015 to make that argument, and I don't know if I would go overly far with it. About 80 of Watson's yards and 7 of their points were of the "we're going to let you complete safe passes but use up the clock" variety. So okay, they still got 33 points....for the year they averaged 38.5 (corrected to 38.3 if you drop the title game) and 577 yards (we held them to 550 and as I said, 68 of those were of the "you can have them" variety).

By CONTEXT, we played pretty good on defense but not spectacularly with the 2015 team.

We only really handeled the Dak attack and the Thrilless wonder really well. Had Les fired or never hired Cam Cameron then one could argue that we aren't at 6 against them.
I disagree.


While Ole Miss DID exceed their 40 ppg average (with the aid of turnovers, refs, and bounces), we still held them about 100 yards below their normal yardage output.

Average PPG (vs us)
Wisky 26. 5 (17)
UGA 26.3 (10)
Arky 35.9 (13)
Tenn 35.2 (14)
ATM 27.8 (23)
LSU 32.8 (16)
Auburn 27.5 (13 - speaking of lucky bounces)
MSU 34.4 (6)
Mich St 29.8 (0)


Only TWO TEAMS all year exceeded their ppg output - Ole Miss and Clemson. We held every team not named ATM/Ole Miss/Clemson SUBSTANTIALLY below their ppg output. And then keep in mind that was a horrific schedule to play, so you have to allot for that.
 

selmaborntidefan

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This is not to be negative, but we lost. I dont care what excuses we make, Coach Bryant died 34 years ago. We just lost and its life. Have I watch the game again NO. The only one i have watched was the 72 Iron Bowl and 73 Sugar Bowl and we lost them. But once its done. I move on.

This is the kind of logic that says the 1972 Dolphins are the greatest team in NFL history.

And they ain't even close.
 

BamaMoon

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Given some more thought and went back on what I said earlier :D...

1. 2015 is the best overall team to win a title. Elite defense, very explosive offense from around mid-season through the championship game.

2. 2012 had the best offensive unit but definitely the weakest defensive unit to win a national title.

3. 2016 is the best team to not win a title.

4. 2010 is the most talented team to not win a title.

5. 2014 is the biggest overachiever.

6. 2009 is the biggest surprise/year-ahead-of-schedule team.

7. 2008 was the most fun...sometimes I wish we could go back to those times when it was just so dang fun to be feared again and not have to feel like it is title or bust.

8. 2013 was the biggest disappointment.

9. 2011 was our luckiest title.
Great post...I thing your point #7 is so true/interesting. Every Bama fan understands this, especially now.

We are so spoiled....last season would be considered by every person in the country's definition "a huge success" but we are bummed, but imagine how great of a season that would have been considered in 2008?

Fact is, though, it's title or bust now and, thankfully, CNS gets it.
 

crimsonaudio

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OK, he stopped Manziel. Sometimes - for whatever reason - a particular DC knows exactly what to do to stop a particular offense.
People tend to forget that Alabama has been the #1 team for a decade now - Bama always gets every teams best shot. They never leave ANYTHING on the table when they play us. LSU was good during this time as well, but Bama was still the team to beat, it's what people hang their hats on.

I guess my point is that Bama played a different team than LSU did. Emotional motivation makes a huge difference in how a team prepares and executes.
 

RTR91

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Alfy Hill, Brent Calloway, LaMichael Fanning, DJ Pettway and Tyler Hayes are front seven guys that would have made a difference if they didn't leave Tuscaloosa early.

People seem to forget Saban was already recruiting guys to combat the new offenses in 2010 and 2011, but guys either didn't qualify (Hill) or left campus for various reasons. Luckily, Pettway got a second chance in Tuscaloosa.

Plus, we recruit Xzavier Dickson (6'3, 238 on Rivals) in 2011 to play the edge. He ends up bulking up to 260 by the time he gets to the NFL combine. Before Dickson, we signed Adrian Hubbard. He was expected to be a pretty solid speed guy off the end. Instead, he goes from being 6'7, 227 as a recruit to 257 at the NFL combine and not being the consistent speed guy we needed.

Fast forward to the class of 2013. Bama signs a skinny speed rusher out of Baton Rouge. We only get to see glimpses of Tim Williams in 2013 and 2014 because he couldn't stay out of the dog house. Looked back at the OU and Ohio State games awhile back to see if he played. He wasn't listed on either game's participation chart. Think he makes an impact in those games if he's not in the dog house?

Point being here - we had "problems" in the 2012-2014 stretch because the players recruited to start the defensive transition didn't produce. The coaches tried to add the necessary parts, but they failed to do one thing until the 2015 season: simplify the defense.

And truthfully, the only "problems" those defenses had were not meeting the standards the previous defenses set by playing more traditional offenses. As rgw said, it's amazing Clemson only scored 35 points in January when running 100 plays. Since the start of the 2013 season, Alabama has held 81% of the P5 spread offenses it's faced under their PPG average. Many fans don't like the style of play, and that's fine. We have to understand, though, sometimes these offenses start clicking and will put points on the board.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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OK, he stopped Manziel. Sometimes - for whatever reason - a particular DC knows exactly what to do to stop a particular offense. I remember when Joe Lee Dunn's name was mentioned every single SEC broadcast.
Sometimes football is just about match-ups. The NFL has a ton of good examples of bad to mediocre teams who consistently beat or at least have close games with much better teams. For a while the Rams (who were/are terrible) had the Seahawks number. I'm pretty sure the swept them one year (maybe it was a win and a tie) but no one in their right mind thought the Rams were actually that good.
 

81usaf92

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I disagree.


While Ole Miss DID exceed their 40 ppg average (with the aid of turnovers, refs, and bounces), we still held them about 100 yards below their normal yardage output.

Average PPG (vs us)
Wisky 26. 5 (17)
UGA 26.3 (10)
Arky 35.9 (13)
Tenn 35.2 (14)
ATM 27.8 (23)
LSU 32.8 (16)
Auburn 27.5 (13 - speaking of lucky bounces)
MSU 34.4 (6)
Mich St 29.8 (0)


Only TWO TEAMS all year exceeded their ppg output - Ole Miss and Clemson. We held every team not named ATM/Ole Miss/Clemson SUBSTANTIALLY below their ppg output. And then keep in mind that was a horrific schedule to play, so you have to allot for that.
2011-2014 is the sample size for your quote.
 

tusks_n_raider

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1. 2011 (Possibly the best Defense I've ever seen....right up there with the '92 D. Clobbered an LSU team that most people would say is one of the best teams ever to not win a NC.....and we should have beat them twice)

2. 2012 (Maybe the most balanced of the NC teams. It feels like the most explosive one offensively and a solid Defense as well)
3. 2015 (This Team had maybe the biggest heart. Henry was unstoppable and Coker just galvanized the team. Love this bunch)
4. 2009 (The Team that really got the modern Dynasty going. If I were ranking as 'favorite' teams I'd place them #1)
5. 2016 (Really wish I could rank this team higher. Probably overperformed considering a TF QB but the Defense is a bit overrated in hindsight imo)
6. 2014 (Incredibly explosive offense with Blake and Coop but a vunerable Defense at times....Team had a LOT of heart
though)

7. 2013 (Still can't believe this team didn't complete the 3-peat......really wanted them to shutdown Winston. Don't like how they folded up the tent against OK)
8. 2008 (This team probably got the most out of itself without winning any type of Major title)
9. 2010 (Loaded with talent but probably the most complacent team that underperformed)
10. 2007 (MAJOR rebuilding year sidetracked by sanctions/textbookgate)
 

CrimsonProf

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In what universe is the 2016 defense overrated?

Y'all are underselling Dabo in a major way and refusing to understand what a gigantic mess Lane Kiffin was.


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RTR91

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1. 2011 (Possibly the best Defense I've ever seen....right up there with the '92 D. Clobbered an LSU team that most people would say is one of the best teams ever to not win a NC.....and we should have beat them twice)

2. 2012 (Maybe the most balanced of the NC teams. It feels like the most explosive one offensively and a solid Defense as well)
3. 2015 (This Team had maybe the biggest heart. Henry was unstoppable and Coker just galvanized the team. Love this bunch)
4. 2009 (The Team that really got the modern Dynasty going. If I were ranking as 'favorite' teams I'd place them #1)
5. 2016 (Really wish I could rank this team higher. Probably overperformed considering a TF QB but the Defense is a bit overrated in hindsight imo)
6. 2014 (Incredibly explosive offense with Blake and Coop but a vunerable Defense at times....Team had a LOT of heart
though)

7. 2013 (Still can't believe this team didn't complete the 3-peat......really wanted them to shutdown Winston. Don't like how they folded up the tent against OK)
8. 2008 (This team probably got the most out of itself without winning any type of Major title)
9. 2010 (Loaded with talent but probably the most complacent team that underperformed)
10. 2007 (MAJOR rebuilding year sidetracked by sanctions/textbookgate)
I see you're still upset about the 2016 defense having one bad game, even though the stats show it's one of the best ever.


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selmaborntidefan

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I see your still upset about the 2016 defense having one bad game, even though the stats show it's one of the best ever.


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The 2016 defense gave up - INCLUDING the Clemson game - 11.8 ppg.

That is the lowest since the 2012 team gave up 10.9 ppg. Better than ANY D in college football in 2013-2014-2015.......

Most recent lower than the 2016 D?

2011 Alabama (8.2)
2011 LSU (11.3)
2009 Nebraska (10.4)
2009 Alabama (11.7)
2008 USC (7.8)
2008 TCU (10.9)
 

CrimsonProf

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The 2016 defense gave up - INCLUDING the Clemson game - 11.8 ppg.

That is the lowest since the 2012 team gave up 10.9 ppg. Better than ANY D in college football in 2013-2014-2015.......

Most recent lower than the 2016 D?

2011 Alabama (8.2)
2011 LSU (11.3)
2009 Nebraska (10.4)
2009 Alabama (11.7)
2008 USC (7.8)
2008 TCU (10.9)
Exactly.

The quality of offense we faced in 2016 was far and away better than that of any of the teams you mentioned - that was a special team that was failed by its offensive coordinator(s).
 

tusks_n_raider

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I see you're still upset about the 2016 defense having one bad game, even though the stats show it's one of the best ever.
Well I mean it's not like I ranked them dead last or called them a bunch of bums or anything. I said 'a bit' overrated. They are in the Top spot of teams that didn't win a NC. I think the 4 teams above are better. They got the job done in the clutch. Plus in that one 'bad' game the 2016 squad gave up as many points as the 2009, 2011, and 2012 teams combined in NCG's.

It wasn't garbage time stuff like the 2015 score either where yards and points were given up in exchange for burning clock.....it was late 3rd/entire 4th quarter clutch time and they got evicerated. That has to knock them down a few pegs. It's not that they weren't great or extremely good overall......but you can't get worked like that in the NCG by an overall less talented team and still throw around G.O.A.T chest beating talk anymore.

I can't figure why I should rank them higher than any of the 4 NC teams either. That just wouldn't make any sense.
 
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RTR91

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Well I mean it's not like I ranked them dead last or called them a bunch of bums or anything. I said 'a bit' overrated. They are in the Top spot of teams that didn't win a NC. I think the 4 teams above are better. They got the job done in the clutch. Plus in that one 'bad' game the 2016 squad gave up as many points as the 2009, 2011, and 2012 teams combined in NCG's.

It wasn't garbage time stuff like the 2015 score either where yards and points were given up in exchange for burning clock.....it was late 3rd/entire 4th quarter clutch time and they got evicerated. That has to knock them down a few pegs. It's not that they weren't great or extremely good overall......but you can't get worked like that in the NCG by an overall less talented team and still throw around G.O.A.T chest beating talk anymore.

I can't figure why I should rank them higher than any of the 4 NC teams either. That just wouldn't make any sense.
Statistically, they are one of the best. It's not that complicated.

When you factor in why they got "evicerated," things don't look nearly as bad as you act. They couldn't do much more than they did thanks to the issues created by a certain coach.


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CrimsonProf

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Well I mean it's not like I ranked them dead last or called them a bunch of bums or anything. I said 'a bit' overrated. They are in the Top spot of teams that didn't win a NC. I think the 4 teams above are better. They got the job done in the clutch. Plus in that one 'bad' game the 2016 squad gave up as many points as the 2009, 2011, and 2012 teams combined in NCG's.

It wasn't garbage time stuff like the 2015 score either where yards and points were given up in exchange for burning clock.....it was late 3rd/entire 4th quarter clutch time and they got evicerated. That has to knock them down a few pegs. It's not that they weren't great or extremely good overall......but you can't get worked like that in the NCG by an overall less talented team and still throw around G.O.A.T chest beating talk anymore.

I can't figure why I should rank them higher than any of the 4 NC teams either. That just wouldn't make any sense.
I don't care about your rankings - I care about you taking potshots about what was - to anyone with a lick of sense - an amazing defense that collapsed at the end when their offense couldn't do any better.

If you had the slightest clue what an absolute cancer Lane Kiffin turned out to be at the end, you wouldn't be blaming them.
 

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