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selmaborntidefan

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Believing what? That he had many extracurricular activities that drove CNS up the wall? That he didn't properly develop Jalen after the LSU game? That he checked out sometimes last year? I believe all those things, but it doesn't take away what ultimately costed us the game and that was the inability to sustain drives and attack Clemson vertically.
Absolutely, totally true.

As far as this blame everything on Kiffin angle consider two things. 1) had we lost the Arizona game would we had dumped the blame on Kirby because he was too busy stealing recruits and players on the roster to call a good game and 2) had we won the Tampa game would we even really be talking about Kiffin right now?
1) No doubt some fans would have done so.

2) Probably not.


The only possible disjunction in what you're saying (by no means accusing you personally) is if one accepts the somewhat valid argument that Kiffin's failure to help develop the offense more was at the root of what went wrong in Tampa.

The problem is that while we can indeed say things went wrong in Tampa, it has to be more than just Kiffin, too. Not to sound Texas but the dynamic changed drastically when Bo got hurt. Yet at the same time, I'm compelled to give credit to Clemson for doing what they had to do. Hell, if one play in that game goes differently, that Stewart option pass and the Jalen dash for the TD goes down in history as the moment that defined Saban's career - his completing an unbeaten season with a freshman QB with an all-world defense stamped as the greatest team of all-time. The razzle dazzle is as remembered as Steinkuhler's fumblerooskie that got Nebraska back in the Miami game in 1984 or the Fifth Down play.

I think Kiffin got way too much media hype for his so-called development, but I also think he gets too much blame for SOME things and not enough blame for others.

I've not watched the Tampa game again - and I may never see it again. Even with my memory, it's hard to reconcile my emotions and evaluate "how we lost" rationally. OK, that's not exactly true. Someday I WILL watch that game again. I rewatched game 7 of the 91 World Series a few years later (and after you win one, it doesn't hurt so bad). I've rewatched the 2013 Iron Bowl, too.


But here's the deal - we had one helluva football team last year, it just didn't win the championship. Every other school in the country save perhaps OU and Ohio State would have LOVED to have been us last year. They'd have had no problem with that ending. Even great teams lose football games.
 

RTR91

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Clemson won, we lost in a very hard fought game. The difference was quarterbacks and key injuries on defense. At some point you have to tip your hat to Deshaun Watson, Dabo, and their defense for recruiting and scheming well enough to beat us. If you want to play the pass the blame totally on Kiffin by all means.

I'm done with taking about Kiffin and the game in Tampa. Moving on
This dialogue started when you called the 2016 defense "a bit overrated" because they didn't stop Clemson.

Judging by the above comments, looks like you agreed with what Selma, Prof and I were saying.


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81usaf92

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This dialogue started when you called the 2016 defense "a bit overrated" because they didn't stop Clemson.
wrong poster. That was tusk n raider. If anything Ive been saying at full strength our defense would've made our offensive weaknesses a non factor.
Judging by the above comments, looks like you agreed with what Selma, Prof and I were saying.


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Again I said there is a certain portion of the blame I give Kiffin, but in the end I look at it like SB 42. The better team doesn't always beat a team near their level. I think Jalen played as well as a freshman could (possibly better), but in the end he made freshman mistakes and had freshman limitations. Clemson dared us to throw long, and we rarely could. They basically played the same game they did in Arizona, but the difference was they were forced to back off once Coker was throwing ropes to OJ and Stewart. We were forced to pass.

In the end Clemson deserves most of the credit for beating us. If you want to give Kiffin 49% of the blame and Clemson 51% of the credit, then I'm fine with that (not that it really matters), but Clemson was the better TEAM THAT NIGHT, we were just the better defense.
 

RTR91

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wrong poster. That was tusk n raider. If anything Ive been saying at full strength our defense would've made our offensive weaknesses a non factor.


Again I said there is a certain portion of the blame I give Kiffin, but in the end I look at it like SB 42. The better team doesn't always beat a team near their level. I think Jalen played as well as a freshman could (possibly better), but in the end he made freshman mistakes and had freshman limitations. Clemson dared us to throw long, and we rarely could. They basically played the same game they did in Arizona, but the difference was they were forced to back off once Coker was throwing ropes to OJ and Stewart. We were forced to pass.

In the end Clemson deserves most of the credit for beating us. If you want to give Kiffin 49% of the blame and Clemson 51% of the credit, then I'm fine with that (not that it really matters), but Clemson was the better TEAM THAT NIGHT, we were just the better defense.
You right. My bad.

I completely tip my hat to Clemson. They did what needed to be done to win. They capitalized on our mistakes and issues (Kiffin and injuries specifically).


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rgw

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I too don't want to come across like I'm poormouthing that Clemson team...that was a great football team and if we were going down that was the only "acceptable" opponent to do it in my opinion.
 

crimsonaudio

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Well I mean it's not like I ranked them dead last or called them a bunch of bums or anything. I said 'a bit' overrated. They are in the Top spot of teams that didn't win a NC. I think the 4 teams above are better. They got the job done in the clutch. Plus in that one 'bad' game the 2016 squad gave up as many points as the 2009, 2011, and 2012 teams combined in NCG's.

It wasn't garbage time stuff like the 2015 score either where yards and points were given up in exchange for burning clock.....it was late 3rd/entire 4th quarter clutch time and they got evicerated. That has to knock them down a few pegs. It's not that they weren't great or extremely good overall......but you can't get worked like that in the NCG by an overall less talented team and still throw around G.O.A.T chest beating talk anymore.

I can't figure why I should rank them higher than any of the 4 NC teams either. That just wouldn't make any sense.
Dude...
 

LA4Bama

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Apples and oranges, pal.

Also, some of y'all aren't appreciating just how good that Clemson team was. Moreover, as starters go, it's hard to say that we were that much more talented.
Well, I agree that Clemson was good and worthy. I do absolutely think there is a family resemblance between complaining about Kiffin and complaining Colt got hurt. I mean, I get the difference but the key point is both are excuses. We are just going to have to deal with the results; not excuses. In that, yes, they are the same.
 

RTR91

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Well, I agree that Clemson was good and worthy. I do absolutely think there is a family resemblance between complaining about Kiffin and complaining Colt got hurt. I mean, I get the difference but the key point is both are excuses. We are just going to have to deal with the results; not excuses. In that, yes, they are the same.
"If Colt hadn't gotten injured..." is an excuse.

"Why was Clemson able to stack the box and crowd the line? Because they didn't respect the deep pass game. Why was that? Lane Kiffin didn't do his job of developing Jalen" is explaining one of the reasons for the loss.

So many like to shout an explanation is an excuse. There's a real difference.

Here's an excuse for the game - blaming the loss solely on the officials not calling offsetting penalties on the Daron Payne's unsportsmanlike penalty.


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CrimsonProf

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Well, I agree that Clemson was good and worthy. I do absolutely think there is a family resemblance between complaining about Kiffin and complaining Colt got hurt. I mean, I get the difference but the key point is both are excuses. We are just going to have to deal with the results; not excuses. In that, yes, they are the same.
Heavens to Betsy already.

No one has said Clemson wasn't a good team. In fact they were a great team who completely deserved to win. The issue here is a couple of posters tried to argue that our defense was overrated in 2016, and a few others of us rejected that proposition on the grounds that a very problematic offensive coordinator stymied the offense to such a degree that the defense was put in an untenable position.

You guys can that excuse making all you like, but looking for answers isn't the same as making excuses.


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LA4Bama

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Wow, I replied to a few posts without reading the whole thread. This thread is heated. Jeez.

Guess I came on this late. My opinion, now having caught up with the whole thread, is this.


First, the best team was 2012. I fully believe 2012 should be favored over any other year.

I do not deny the game strategies have evolved, but I also believe that team was complete and while 2016 was also a solid team, I believe the superior QB play from a mature AJ over a still developing Jalen, combined with superior OL play, would have been enough. It's an opinion. Feel free to disagree.

I think people underestimate the 2011 team because the game has evolved.

Lots of talk about evolving teams. Yes, true. But, even in nature, evolution is a cost benefit tradeoff. We like to think that the modern offense would shred the old defense. Yeah, that's right. But guess what; when you build a modern defense to stop a modern offense, you also leave the old offense to take advantage of the changes. The 2012 OL would certainly have had their hands full with our 2016 DL, but who wouldn't? The fact is, the 2012 OL was also build very well and frankly it could have blasted the 2016 dl over 4 quarters. I fully believe 2012 OL in 4 quarters obliterates 2016 DL. Why? Well, even Clemson wore us out. Can you imagine if that was Fluker at RT? I'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but in term solely of projection to win, I have 2012, followed by 2013, then a push at 2011 and 2016. Then 2015, who over achieved. Then 2014, 2009, then 2008.

However, in terms of playing up their abilities according to their year, I have


2009,
2012,
2011,
2015,
2008,
2016,
2014,
2010,
2013.
 

81usaf92

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Heavens to Betsy already.

No one has said Clemson wasn't a good team. In fact they were a great team who completely deserved to win. The issue here is a couple of posters tried to argue that our defense was overrated in 2016, and a few others of us rejected that proposition on the grounds that a very problematic offensive coordinator stymied the offense to such a degree that the defense was put in an untenable position.

You guys can that excuse making all you like, but looking for answers isn't the same as making excuses.


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1) only 1 poster said the defense was overrated

2) the few that argued with you on Kiffin argued with you because you made it out like he was THE ONLY reason.

3) No it's not a "If Colt got hurt situation", but it's becoming more of sour grapes as the days move forward to the FSU game. Clemson won we lost time to move on. Excuses and answers are irrelevant as they are with the 2010 iron bowl, 2005 LSU game, and 2015 Ole Miss game.
 

B1GTide

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Clemson won we lost time to move on.
Some losses are hard to get over, and this is part of the process for getting past them. You may already be over it. That's cool, and I envy you for it. Win # 17 and almost everyone else will join you there. But for now, discussing it helps. Just don't ask me to watch it again - ever.
 

bamacpa

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I think Coop would have a big day against the 2016 secondary. Coop's better than any receiver we saw last year. 2012 is my pick also.
I think that the 2016 team would have won because the 2012 team would not have been able to score.
 

bamacpa

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I think the 2016 defensive stats were helped a bit by the lack of quality offenses on the schedule. That D was very, very good but did not face many quality QBs.
 

GrayTide

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I realize some folks want to continue to discuss the NC loss and "get it off their chest". But as some one on here already said, the best team doesn't always win. Sometimes you lose.
 

RTR91

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I think the 2016 defensive stats were helped a bit by the lack of quality offenses on the schedule. That D was very, very good but did not face many quality QBs.
That's not at all true...

Going to just repost what I posted earlier in this thread.
The 2011 defense that we all love held it's opponents to 51% of their yard per game average. That's less than the 2015 (65%) and 2016 (58%) teams.

It also held opponents to 29% of their points per game average, which is also less than than 2015 (47%) and 2016 (38%).

We all love that defense, but the best offense it faced all year was either Arkansas (#29 in FBS total offense, 438.08 ypg) or Georgia Southern (#13 in FCS total offense, 435 ypg). Mississippi State was the second best FBS offense it faced, and MSU ranked 84th in total offense (357.15 ypg).

Meanwhile, the 2015 defense faced six teams that averaged 437 yards per game or more, and the 2016 defense faced nine teams that averaged more than 440 yards per game. The 2016 defense's opponents averaged 451.51 yards per game, so the 2011 defense didn't even face a team the equivalent of the average offense faced by the 2016 team.

We all recognize the game has changed, so who knows how that team would do against today's offense. I'm not sure they would be able to shut them down like the 2015 or 2016 teams did, though.
 

81usaf92

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That's not at all true...

Going to just repost what I posted earlier in this thread.
2011- best qb we faced was Tyler Wilson (Arkansas)

2nd best: Jordan Jefferson?

3rd best: Brantley and Driskel?


2016: best qb was Watson

2nd best: Kelly

3rd: take your pick Knight, Dobbs, Dardin, and Fitzgerald.

Point is there were way better qbs we faced in 2016
 
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selmaborntidefan

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I think the 2016 defensive stats were helped a bit by the lack of quality offenses on the schedule.
Rankings of offenses Alabama played


5 W Kentucky (1)
12 Clemson (14)
20 USC (36)
24 ATM (34)
26 Ole Miss (42)
32 Washington (8)
40 Tennessee (24)
44 Miss St (56)
Auburn (49)

Over 1/2 the schedule was in the top 45 in ypg. The parenthesis is the ranking by POINTS per game.

Either way you slice it, we played eight of the top 49 offenses in college football in a 15-game schedule, nine if one includes just the yards MSU ran up. And Arky and UK were 57 and 58, still in the top 1/2.


Then keep this in mind: since the SEC had four of the seven best defenses in the country that will by definition LOWER the offensive PPG (just as the offenses will RAISE the defensive one).

When you play a 15-game schedule with nine offenses in the top HALF of college football, that's not what I'd say is not playing quality offenses.


That D was very, very good but did not face many quality QBs.
Oh, but that wasn't what was being said BEFORE the games now, was it?

Remember all the hype Trevor Knight got because "he beat Alabama?"
What about the hype Chad Kelly got because "he beat Alabama?"

Or what about that kid from Washington (Browning I believe)?


There's also - in college football anyway - a big difference between a great quarterback and a great offense. You can have a great quarterback on a somewhat pedestrian offense (that has no other talent) just like you can have a great offense with a game manager at QB.
 

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