The Cult of Ignorance in America Anti-Intellectualism

AlexanderFan

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Which is the main reason I get ticked off at people who put all the blame on the teachers. There are definitely bad teachers out there, but if the parents don't support the teachers, whether it's stressing the important of education or supporting a teacher when they are told that their little angel is misbehaving in class, even the best teacher will
have little luck.
Every school needs a large male teacher that can bring the thunder. It needs to start in elementary school so by the time the punks, ahem, angels reach junior high they know the consequences of misbehaving at school.


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Tidewater

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Every school needs a large male teacher that can bring the thunder. It needs to start in elementary school so by the time the punks, ahem, angels reach junior high they know the consequences of misbehaving at school.
It's funny you should say that. The high school where I did my practicum, the basketball coach, a guy who had played center for South Carolina State College had the best-behaved class in the department. When he said jump, the kids said "How high?" on the way up. He was really a nice guy, but he looked intimidating as all get-out. Plus, they could not play the race card the way they did with the white teachers.
 

IMALOYAL1

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Too often the curriculum has to be scaled down so no child gets left behind. They teach on a curve and if the class has a few outstanding students they mess the curve up for those far behind, to the point some kids need to be rearranged.

One year my school tried to create teams of two. The A students were paired with the d-f students in hopes this would help. My A average went to a C. I felt obligated to try an explain what the teacher was explaining all the while missing what was said while I tried to help my fellow student. I hated it.
Some parents and students complained and got their kid reassigned. I toughed it out for 2 semesters until the student I was paired with just never showed up for class toward the end of the 2nd semester. I was working and paying a great deal (to me) for those credit hrs.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Too often the curriculum has to be scaled down so no child gets left behind. They teach on a curve and if the class has a few outstanding students they mess the curve up for those far behind, to the point some kids need to be rearranged.

One year my school tried to create teams of two. The A students were paired with the d-f students in hopes this would help. My A average went to a C. I felt obligated to try an explain what the teacher was explaining all the while missing what was said while I tried to help my fellow student. I hated it.
Some parents and students complained and got their kid reassigned. I toughed it out for 2 semesters until the student I was paired with just never showed up for class toward the end of the 2nd semester. I was working and paying a great deal (to me) for those credit hrs.
What you're describing happening at the college level has long been happening at the grade school level. This is exactly why there has been an exponential rise in private schooling and homeschooling in our area. Parents who care about their child's education are refusing to sit idle and allow the watering down of the public educational system to impact their children. Despite the broad brush that rgw has painted with, not every private school/home school (with a religious influence) is as inferior as he is describing. Especially not in our area. The private schools in our area are luring away some of the best teachers from the public school system once they reach the earliest tier for retirement which is 20 years with the public system. It allows the teacher to retire with the state and keep his/her insurance. The private schools are able to pay between $30,000-$40,000 in salary. They offer other perks such as free tuition for the first two children or grandchild of the teacher. Any child or grandchild after that gets reduced tuition. So basically the "retired" teacher gets roughly $1,200-$1,500/month retirement from the state (including hlth insurance) to supplement her private school salary. The net impact is they aren't taking a cut in pay or losing health benefits. The private schools in our area teach from a "Classical Education" model and aren't forced to put up with the idiotic demands of the public system. Granted, the tuition to attend these schools isn't cheap. But to be honest. The clientele of these private schools are the rich, upper middle class or anyone willing to make the sacrifices to allow their children to attend. But one thing is for certain. They aren't receiving an inferior education. There are four in our area that currently have a waiting list because they can't expand fast enough to meet the demand. But are adding personnel each year and expanding at a rapid rate. My wife has three years left before she can retire from the public school system. She's one of the top teachers in our parish/county (don't take my word for it look at the hardware of teacher of the year awards on her shelf for proof. LOL). She's already been contacted by three private schools soliciting her services when she retires. She plans on retiring at 20 years and signing a contract with one of the three private schools. What they're currently offering her she will actually get a raise if you factor in what her retirement from the state will be.

I addressed mostly the private school sector but the home school system around here is very good as well. We know more than a few couples who home school and trust me. They could walk into any advanced public school class Monday and more than likely be ahead of where they are. So, again, despite the broad brush rgw paints with. I highly doubt it's as bad as he's painting it.
 

cuda.1973

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I seriously doubt that these same respondents were picturing a civil engineering student studying how much weight a bridge could bear when expressing that negative opinion.
Ask those who get one of those degrees if they can get a job.......................

If the answer is "Thanks, but we are outsourcing all of that to a bunch of idiots, from India, because they work for peanuts, and won't kvetch", then there is your answer: college really is a waste of time and money. (Says the guy who was told his education/background makes him overqualified, for the last 20 years or so.)

The rest who attend college, with no goal in mind, are just there for the indoctrination. And using Mommy and Daddy to foot the bill.

Such a deal.
 

cuda.1973

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My parents tried a montessori school first (good but too expensive) then a catholic school when I hit 3rd grade. I was there from 3rd to 6th grade. I won't even get into the issues I have with religious indoctrination being 1/5th of a child's daily learning time. However I will relate that when I got to Alabama public schools, I was so far behind it wasn't funny. One example was that I could recite bible verses, but didn't know what a verb was.
Granted, this was over 50 years ago, and "up north", but aside from the penguins putting the fear of God, in the kids, they performed better than a lot of public school kids.

The main reason: nonsense not tolerated.

Now, ask anything public school educator what their biggest problem is: the admin tolerates nonsense, because a.) they don't want grief from the parents, and/or b.) to be labeled as racists.

The bottom line is they don't support their teachers, and fall back on "what did you do to provoke the student?"

The admins spend too much time, in their bubble, thinking up stupid stuff like "let's mainstream all the SpEd students, and bear down on the teachers, to get them to pass the standardized test." Which only drags down the entire educational process, for all of the students.

It gets worse, when it comes to undergrad time. Too much energy wasted on diversity and safe spaces. Like either of those will prepare their graduates for a job.

Which I thought was the whole point. I guess not. (Assuming they can get one!)
 

chanson78

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Granted, this was over 50 years ago, and "up north", but aside from the penguins putting the fear of God, in the kids, they performed better than a lot of public school kids.
The main reason: nonsense not tolerated.
Now, ask anything public school educator what their biggest problem is: the admin tolerates nonsense, because a.) they don't want grief from the parents, and/or b.) to be labeled as racists.
The bottom line is they don't support their teachers, and fall back on "what did you do to provoke the student?"
The admins spend too much time, in their bubble, thinking up stupid stuff like "let's mainstream all the SpEd students, and bear down on the teachers, to get them to pass the standardized test." Which only drags down the entire educational process, for all of the students.
It gets worse, when it comes to undergrad time. Too much energy wasted on diversity and safe spaces. Like either of those will prepare their graduates for a job.
Which I thought was the whole point. I guess not. (Assuming they can get one!)
So is your point that either I didn't have enough fear of god or was up to too much nonsense as the reason for not being taught what a verb was?
 

LA4Bama

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Personal anecdote. Where I was growing up, the public schools were terrible. My parents tried a montessori school first (good but too expensive) then a catholic school when I hit 3rd grade. I was there from 3rd to 6th grade. I won't even get into the issues I have with religious indoctrination being 1/5th of a child's daily learning time. However I will relate that when I got to Alabama public schools, I was so far behind it wasn't funny. One example was that I could recite bible verses, but didn't know what a verb was.

Pretty much soured me on the whole christian private school thing.
So, according to you, the public schools were so "terrible" your parents paid thousands of dollars per semester to send you to a private school (Catholic school), yet later you discovered your parents had been bamboozled to have paid to send you to schools inferior to the terrible public education. Sorry, your anecdote doesn't ring true, even as an anecdote. I have a hard time believing that you went to Catholic school from 3-6th grade and came away knowing Bible verses but not what a verb is. First of all, Catholic education does not even emphasize memorizing the Bible like some Protestant education does, but even if you were memorizing Scripture in religion class, I just don't believe you weren't being taught what a verb is. Catholic education may not be the best available in all places, but on the whole the students frequently score above the national public school average in reading, and have done so for many years. Catholic education is rarely so incompetent as you are describing, to assert that it is way behind Alabama public school education is just false (and shows your bias), and I seriously doubt the reason you didn't know what a verb was by 6th grade (assuming this is even true) was your teachers' fault. I believe one thing; I think you are "soured" on the Christians. Perhaps this "anecdote" is the result of your soured viewpoint instead of the cause of it.
 

chanson78

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So, according to you, the public schools were so "terrible" your parents paid thousands of dollars per semester to send you to a private school (Catholic school), yet later you discovered your parents had been bamboozled to have paid to send you to schools inferior to the terrible public education. Sorry, your anecdote doesn't ring true, even as an anecdote. I have a hard time believing that you went to Catholic school from 3-6th grade and came away knowing Bible verses but not what a verb is. First of all, Catholic education does not even emphasize memorizing the Bible like some Protestant education does, but even if you were memorizing Scripture in religion class, I just don't believe you weren't being taught what a verb is. Catholic education may not be the best available in all places, but on the whole the students frequently score above the national public school average in reading, and have done so for many years. Catholic education is rarely so incompetent as you are describing, to assert that it is way behind Alabama public school education is just false (and shows your bias), and I seriously doubt the reason you didn't know what a verb was by 6th grade (assuming this is even true) was your teachers' fault. I believe one thing; I think you are "soured" on the Christians. Perhaps this "anecdote" is the result of your soured viewpoint instead of the cause of it.
Take it for what it is. For what it's worth, technically it was 7th grade that I still didn't know what a verb was. Barring you talking to my parents, or finding old tests, or a time machine to watch 7th grade me trying to learn these concepts, I imagine we are at an impasse. I guess it wouldn't help if I swore on a bible, would it? At least not with how you apparently perceive my willingness to tell the truth.

I would imagine, that for every person who would have a hard time believing that there could possibly be a catholic school that prioritized religion classes over concepts regarding the english language, there are just as many who have a hard time believing that the catholic church would ever cover for pedophiles. But that's just me.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Ask those who get one of those degrees if they can get a job.......................

If the answer is "Thanks, but we are outsourcing all of that to a bunch of idiots, from India, because they work for peanuts, and won't kvetch", then there is your answer: college really is a waste of time and money. (Says the guy who was told his education/background makes him overqualified, for the last 20 years or so.)

The rest who attend college, with no goal in mind, are just there for the indoctrination. And using Mommy and Daddy to foot the bill.

Such a deal.
At times of cutbacks around here, a PHD almost makes one unhireable...
 

LA4Bama

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Take it for what it is. For what it's worth, technically it was 7th grade that I still didn't know what a verb was. Barring you talking to my parents, or finding old tests, or a time machine to watch 7th grade me trying to learn these concepts, I imagine we are at an impasse. I guess it wouldn't help if I swore on a bible, would it? At least not with how you apparently perceive my willingness to tell the truth.

I would imagine, that for every person who would have a hard time believing that there could possibly be a catholic school that prioritized religion classes over concepts regarding the english language, there are just as many who have a hard time believing that the catholic church would ever cover for pedophiles. But that's just me.
First of all, I didn't say you lied. You may very well believe what you typed. I'm critiquing the falsity of the interpretation from your self-described "sour" viewpoint. And now, you are just throwing crap against the wall. This has nothing to do with covering for pedophile priests. You are just evoking more things that trigger your sour viewpoint, and people's emotions, and really you are just generalizing like a soured, hater would. I mean it; you are acting like a hateful person. If we were talking about Muslim schools, and you said something like, "Oh yeah, those people are the one's with terrorist," we'd know you were a generalizing bigot who didn't have a credible point to stand on, so you make associations with emotionally charged irrelevancies instead. So how is it different when we are talking Catholic education and you invoke a significant but totally unrelated scandal. Pathetic, irrelevant emotionalism is all that is.

There are a lot of reasons your story is not plausible, none of which are affected by child abuse. Not only does it not ring true of Catholic education, but it does not ring true of any education. If you really didn't know what a verb was by 7th grade, whose fault is that? You want us to believe that all your teachers were incompetent, and worse, derelict? Your school didn't use textbooks with lessons on verbs; it used the Bible not only in religion class, but in English class, and math class, and PE? You suggest that I don't believe you due to an inability to believe there are bad Catholic schools, but that's not the problem here. Of course it's possible there are bad schools, and I don't deny it. But if you really went to a terrible school, where were your parents, who apparently cared enough for your education to send you to private school? They didn't notice in 4 years that you were an ignoramus of basic grammar? They never helped you with your homework to discover your illiteracy? They didn't teach you what a verb was themselves when they noticed? They paid for a private school for 4 years but didn't notice it was inferior to the free public education? They cared enough to send you to a private school but not enough to noticed when they still had to read you the bedtime stories when you were 11? Uh huh, yeah, sure. It's the school's fault, according to you; yet none of the other students' parents noticed over the same 4 year span that their children were grammatically retarded? Nobody stepped in when the whole 4th grade failed the standardized tests in English grammar and reading? The whole school and all the parents were too busy covering for the pedophile priests to notice their children couldn't parse as sentence? Or would you have us believe it was just you who didn't know what a verb was? Were all the teachers out to make sure you and you alone couldn't tell what a verb is? The other kids had a text book with lessons, but you were made to sit in the corner drooling on the Bible? They fooled your parents by assigning you no homework, gave you straight A's in reading, and fabricated your standardized tests so nobody would see your ineptitude? If none of this is plausible, and if it is true that you didn't know what a verb was by 12 years old, maybe you need to own some personal responsibility instead of blaming not only a whole school, but a whole school system (which you do by generalizing "the whole christian private school thing").

No, I don't need a time machine to figure out what is true and what is sour.
 

Relayer

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Personal anecdote. Where I was growing up, the public schools were terrible. My parents tried a montessori school first (good but too expensive) then a catholic school when I hit 3rd grade. I was there from 3rd to 6th grade. I won't even get into the issues I have with religious indoctrination being 1/5th of a child's daily learning time. However I will relate that when I got to Alabama public schools, I was so far behind it wasn't funny. One example was that I could recite bible verses, but didn't know what a verb was.

Pretty much soured me on the whole christian private school thing.
I suspect each Christian school, as do public schools, stands on its own merits, probably even more so. My brother-in-law put 2 kids through a Catholic school in Montgomery and by all indications (ie, performance in college, job secured) they both received a fine education.
 

chanson78

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No, I don't need a time machine to figure out what is true and what is sour.
There is a lot here. Not knowing what a verb is doesn't mean one can't read. You seem to have made quite the leap. Never once did I intimate I couldn't read. Just because someone doesn't know to identify a verb out of a sentence, doesn't mean they don't understand language or how words interact.

I said that 1/5th of the day was spent in religious studies. You are the one who then extrapolated that to " Your school didn't use textbooks with lessons on verbs; it used the Bible not only in religion class, but in English class, and math class, and PE?" Look I get it, you don't like that I have used my subpar experience and generalized it as to how a christian based education may not always be the best thing. Tough. I am not exactly sure why you are so happy trying to explain that I not only was a bad student, but my parents were derelict in raising me as well. I already explained in my first post that it "Pretty much soured me on the whole christian private school thing."

I especially like the grammatically retarded line. That was a good one. I can just imagine you typing furiously trying to explain that my story doesn't pass the smell test because I am such a sourpuss on religious schooling. In the end, I still feel that there are better uses of my money and time than sending my kid to a christian school. I do however appreciate your well thought out and passionate deconstruction of what I can only imagine you think was some sad, cranky 3 year period in my life where I willfully ignored all the wonderful lessons given by what is likely a stellar catholic elementary school.


 

danb

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I went to a private Christian school through most of elementary school. My birthday was after the cut off for enrollment in the county school system, and my parents didn't want me to sit out a year after kindergarten. I went to Westminster Christian first and second grade, then went to public school third, fourth, and fifth grade. After having some issues the first week of school with my sixth grade teacher, my parents sent me back to private school (Madison Academy) for sixth, seventh, and eighth grades. When I got to high school, I went to Sparkman (public school) until graduation.

I can honestly say that about 80% of the material covered while I was in high school, were things I had already been taught in 6-8 grade at MA. So while I have no reason to doubt anyone else's private Christian school experience, I can only say that in my experience the curriculum was far ahead of the public school I later attended.




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Tidewater

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At times of cutbacks around here, a PHD almost makes one unhireable...
It seems like you could deal with that with a buy-out clause in your contract: "If I take any other job over the next ten years, I agree to pay the employer the sum of $____."

I remember having a conversation with a department chair in Alabama about the difficulty in hiring an African-American professor of African-American history. Let's face it, you don't have to be black to be a professor of African-American history, but being black does lend a certain amount of credibility in the subject, especially at some schools with a troubled past in terms of race relations (e.g. Alabama, Ole Miss).
My solution? Build your own. Find a promising African-American grad student (probably one wrapping up his MA and intending to pursue a PhD), contract him while still in school, help pay for his PhD and obligate him to work for your school for X number of years after he finishes his PhD. Given the expense of grad school and the competition for tenure-track jobs, a smart AA grad student would jump at that opportunity.
It would only take a little bit of money and some supervisory brain power to ensure the guy/gal stays on track, but in the end, the school would get a decent AA professor of AA history. I mean, if increasing AA professors is important.
 

TIDE-HSV

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It seems like you could deal with that with a buy-out clause in your contract: "If I take any other job over the next ten years, I agree to pay the employer the sum of $____."

I remember having a conversation with a department chair in Alabama about the difficulty in hiring an African-American professor of African-American history. Let's face it, you don't have to be black to be a professor of African-American history, but being black does lend a certain amount of credibility in the subject, especially at some schools with a troubled past in terms of race relations (e.g. Alabama, Ole Miss).
My solution? Build your own. Find a promising African-American grad student (probably one wrapping up his MA and intending to pursue a PhD), contract him while still in school, help pay for his PhD and obligate him to work for your school for X number of years after he finishes his PhD. Given the expense of grad school and the competition for tenure-track jobs, a smart AA grad student would jump at that opportunity.
It would only take a little bit of money and some supervisory brain power to ensure the guy/gal stays on track, but in the end, the school would get a decent AA professor of AA history. I mean, if increasing AA professors is important.
I think there are factors in play other than fear of the employee moving on. I think apprehension that the employee will get bored with work beneath him/her, possible difficulty in accepting direction from someone with less education. I think there are a number of factors involved, really...
 

LA4Bama

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There is a lot here. Not knowing what a verb is doesn't mean one can't read. You seem to have made quite the leap. Never once did I intimate I couldn't read. Just because someone doesn't know to identify a verb out of a sentence, doesn't mean they don't understand language or how words interact.

I said that 1/5th of the day was spent in religious studies. You are the one who then extrapolated that to " Your school didn't use textbooks with lessons on verbs; it used the Bible not only in religion class, but in English class, and math class, and PE?" Look I get it, you don't like that I have used my subpar experience and generalized it as to how a christian based education may not always be the best thing. Tough. I am not exactly sure why you are so happy trying to explain that I not only was a bad student, but my parents were derelict in raising me as well. I already explained in my first post that it "Pretty much soured me on the whole christian private school thing."

I especially like the grammatically retarded line. That was a good one. I can just imagine you typing furiously trying to explain that my story doesn't pass the smell test because I am such a sourpuss on religious schooling. In the end, I still feel that there are better uses of my money and time than sending my kid to a christian school. I do however appreciate your well thought out and passionate deconstruction of what I can only imagine you think was some sad, cranky 3 year period in my life where I willfully ignored all the wonderful lessons given by what is likely a stellar catholic elementary school.


This is what you wrote...

personal anecdote. Where I was growing up, the public schools were terrible. My parents tried a montessori school first (good but too expensive) then a catholic school when I hit 3rd grade. I was there from 3rd to 6th grade. I won't even get into the issues I have with religious indoctrination being 1/5th of a child's daily learning time. However I will relate that when I got to Alabama public schools, I was so far behind it wasn't funny. One example was that I could recite bible verses, but didn't know what a verb was.

Pretty much soured me on the whole christian private school thing.
Anyone can see what you said. Some may agree; I refute it. That's all that happened. I think you are plenty intelligent to grasp what has actually happened here. However, if that is not so, there are some really good Catholic schools I can recommend where you can learn how to follow an argument. If you want to learn to decipher sarcasm, I can recommend a few Jesuit schools in particular.
 

MattinBama

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This is what you wrote...



Anyone can see what you said. Some may agree; I refute it. That's all that happened. I think you are plenty intelligent to grasp what has actually happened here. However, if that is not so, there are some really good Catholic schools I can recommend where you can learn how to follow an argument. If you want to learn to decipher sarcasm, I can recommend a few Jesuit schools in particular.
Woe betide anyone who has a personal story that doesn't fit with your worldview.
 

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