Baseball Hall of Fame - Do Any From the Steroid Era that Belong?

CajunCrimson · Jul 12, 2017

tusks_n_raider said:
That plus adding an absolute freakish boost in strength. Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa's HR's all started going ridiculous lengths. Plus who knows how many of their HR's would have just been deep fly balls before but because of the juice just made it over the wall.

I'm not sure if the stuff would make Clemens pitches faster or just help him maintain his natural velocity longer in life......but the hitters definitely were hitting the long ball longer......WAY longer.

McGwire's HRs even as a Rookie, were rocket shots.

Bamabuzzard · Jul 12, 2017

CajunCrimson said:
McGwire's HRs even as a Rookie, were rocket shots.

I think McGwire benefited more from longevity the juice gave him than the power. The power was always there. His health wasn't...

tusks_n_raider · Jul 12, 2017

CajunCrimson said:
McGwire's HRs even as a Rookie, were rocket shots.

If he really nailed a high/hanging pitch.... yeah that's true. But he didn't hit rocket shots with the same frequency back then from what I remember and I watched Oakland a good bit. Though Bonds and Sosa seemed to bulk up the most.

Bonds looked like a pencil when he was with the Pirates and hit about 25 HR's a year on average. Then when he got to San Fran and looked like the Hulk and was tagging close to 40+ a year and they were just Bombs. He would just flick his wrist and they were way gone.

Bamabuzzard · Jul 12, 2017

tusks_n_raider said:
If he really nailed a high/hanging pitch.... yeah that's true. But he didn't hit rocket shots with the same frequency back then from what I remember and I watched Oakland a good bit. Though Bonds and Sosa seemed to bulk up the most.

Bonds looked like a pencil when he was with the Pirates and hit about 25 HR's a year on average. Then when he got to San Fran and looked like the Hulk and was tagging close to 40+ a year and they were just Bombs. He would just flick his wrist and they were way gone.

If you want to see a textbook example of a player before juice and while juicing, by simply looking at statistics. Look at Palmeiro's stats his first six years then look at them afterwards. Palmeiro and Will Clark were basically identical type of hitters coming out of Miss St. Roughly going to hit high .280's to low .300's in batting average and hit 20+ hr's per year. Which is what both did when they came into the league. Except around year 7 Palmeiro amazingly finds the power of Thor in his bat. In his seventh year, at age 28 he begins a tear of obvious increased power. While Clark continued with his same high .280's BA and 20 hrs/year until he retired. Palmeiro played five years longer than Clark as well. Knowing what we know now. If there's no asterisk put by Palmeiro's name AND his stats pulled from the official record books. It will appear that he was head and shoulders a better hitter than Clark. But in reality, Clark's numbers were "clean", accomplished within the rules during the era in which he played. This is the problem I have. It diminishes the accomplishments and gives an inferior look to players' stats that otherwise would standout.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/palmera01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clarkwi02.shtml

tusks_n_raider · Jul 12, 2017

Bamabuzzard said:
If you want to see a textbook example of a player before juice and while juicing, by simply looking at statistics. Look at Palmeiro's stats his first six years then look at them afterwards. Palmeiro and Will Clark were basically identical type of hitters coming out of Miss St. Roughly going to hit high .280's to low .300's in batting average and hit 20+ hr's per year. Which is what both did when they came into the league. Except around year 7 Palmeiro amazingly finds the power of Thor in his bat. In his seventh year, at age 28 he begins a tear of obvious increased power. While Clark continued with his same high .280's BA and 20 hrs/year until he retired. Palmeiro played five years longer than Clark as well. Knowing what we know now. If there's no asterisk put by Palmeiro's name it will appear that he was head and shoulders a better hitter than Clark. But in reality, Clark's numbers were "clean", accomplished within the rules during the era in which he played. This is the problem I have. It diminishes the accomplishments and gives an inferior look to players' stats that otherwise would standout.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/palmera01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clarkwi02.shtml

Will 'The Thrill' Clark!!! Now that name is a blast from the past. I always liked him....really solid 1st Baseman. I always remember him being a .300 Avg 20HR 75-100 RBI player. I always considered him an 'All-Star' type player.

Your comparison to Palmeiro is a great one. Plus I'd even say he was not quite as good as Clark pre-juice. Palmerio hit no more than 8 to 14 HR's a year his first 3-4 seasons and no more than 30-64 RBIs his first 3 years and then 89 RBI's.

Then he jumped to a 25 Hr a year avg for 4 years and RBI's stayed at about 85-90 RBI's. Then he had another big leap in '93 where he jumped to around the 40HR a year range and 100++ RBI's every year.

Kind of makes you think he 'tested the waters' in 1991 and 1992 and then went whole hog in '93 and never looked back.

I can say I think more of Will Clark as a player than Palmeiro. It might not show in the stat sheets now but for those of us who watched all these players during this era we can tell who was always clean and who used enhancments.

crimsonaudio · Jul 12, 2017

bamabuzzard said:
i think mcgwire benefited more from longevity the juice gave him than the power. The power was always there. His health wasn't...

lol:

crimsonaudio · Jul 12, 2017

I honestly don't care because I don't care about baseball, but IMO, anyone caught cheating like this should be banned from their respective HoF.

tusks_n_raider · Jul 12, 2017

Slightly off topic but when I think about 'clean' players from this era I think the best Hitter/All-Around Field player was/is Ken Griffey Jr.

Not only was he an amazing hitter.... he won 10 straight Gold Gloves in CF. His career was never the same though when he started getting injured in Cinncinati. He never won another Gold Glove and his HR's went down signficantly. Yet he still finished with 630 HR's and is the highest % inductee all time. Just think if he had never been injury plagued. He would have shattered Aaron's record and it would have been totally legit.

With Pitchers I think the best I've seen is Greg Maddux. 355 Wins in the 'Live Ball' era. He was just pinpoint precise with control with a devastating change-up and 2 and 4 seam fastballs that darted in and caught the outside and inside edges and just buckled guys knees.

He had 4 straight Cy Youngs, Was a 4-Time Era leader (2.36, 1.56, 1.63, 2.22)...oh and two more years his Era was 2.18 and 2.20.....those are ridiculous. 18....EIGHTEEN Gold Gloves and is the only pitcher ever to win 15+ wins a year for 17 straight years!!!....and.....The only pitcher to ever have 300+ wins, with 3,000+ K's, and less than 1,000 walks. ALL.....totally clean accolades.

MattinBama · Jul 12, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
I honestly don't care because I don't care about baseball, but IMO, anyone caught cheating like this should be banned from their respective Hall of Mild Passing Interest.

FIFY.

GrayTide · Jul 15, 2017

bamachile said:
The steroid era is what turned me away from being a MLB fan. I really don't care what they do anymore.

I loved baseball growing up, I was a huge Dodger fan. I never missed Ole Dizz and the Scooter on Saturday afternoons. The last MLB I watched was the World Series between Cincinnati and Boston, 1975 IIRC. I haven't cared since then and don't care who or who doesn't get in. I feel the same about the NFL, NBA and NHL.

2003TIDE · Jul 15, 2017

If any of them get in from the Steroid Era, Pete Rose should get in too.

2003TIDE · Jul 15, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
lol:

End the end he was so big, it looked like he was holding a pencil for a bat.

DzynKingRTR · Jul 15, 2017

Bazza said:
None on that list compares to the man who should already be in.......

but he bet on baseball which is somehow worse than injecting yourself with drugs to make you better than everyone else.

KrAzY3 · Jul 15, 2017

The problem is I can't vote without choosing one of them.

4Q Basket Case · Jul 16, 2017

None of the options, and not Pete Rose, either.

There's a difference between scuffing a ball and systematically undermining the integrity of the game. It's the difference between going 75 in a 70 zone, versus going 125 with BAC OF .15.

In the case of the proven steroid users, how do you explain them to all the guys who didn't juice? If you admit them, you're saying to a whole generation of players that they should have juiced, too. Because...wait for it, all you parents of teenagers...everybody else did.

In the case of Rose, he first said he didn't gamble. Then,"I did, but not on baseball." Then, "OK, it was baseball, but not on my team." Then, "OK, I bet on my team, but only to win." Then, "OK, I did it all...I'm really sorry. And if you could forgive me for 30 years of lying, I'd really appreciate it. Will you let me in now?"

He called into question every decision he made as a manager, and every error and plate appearance that didn't result in getting on base as a player.

Were we witnessing his best effort to win a game, or his best effort to win a bet? What do you think other members of his team think about that? What about the fans who pay a lot of money to attend a game...were they watching a straight game, or a fix?

To use a more current analogy, it's the difference between every SEC football program pushing up to the very edge of recruiting rules, with maybe a toenail over the line, vs. Ole Miss' incredible actions, taken while thumbing their nose and giving both the middle finger and Bronx cheer to the other 13 members. Should we let OM skate because nobody else is 100% pure? I doubt many on this board would say so.

The guys in the OP's poll, Pete Rose, and Ole Miss didn't cut corners. They systematically undermined the integrity of the system.

They should pay the price.

Baseball Hall of Fame - Do Any From the Steroid Era that Belong?

Which of these players belong in the Hall of Fame?

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Mark McGwire

Sammy Sosa

Gary Sheffield

Rafael Palmiero

Mo Vaughn

Jose Canseco

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