Baseball Hall of Fame - Do Any From the Steroid Era that Belong?

CajunCrimson · Jul 11, 2017

Conversation came up on our local sports station - about players from the "Steroid Era" of Baseball, and if those players belong in the Hall. The conversation came up due to the increase in Power this year in Baseball......

My take is - if you let Gaylord Perry in -- anyone should be able to get in.....

Baseball let the Steroid Era happen. It saved MLB. It put professional baseball back into the mainstream. The HR Chase of McGwire and Sosa was on the front page of USA Today daily. It was part of the evening news. It caused people to watch MLB that hadn't watched it years/decades.

What say you? Do any of the "blacklisted" players belong in the Hall? If so, who? And who doesn't (if any)?

Displaced Bama Fan · Jul 11, 2017

Bagwell got in so....

bamachile · Jul 11, 2017

The steroid era is what turned me away from being a MLB fan. I really don't care what they do anymore.

jthomas666 · Jul 11, 2017

There's no "None of the Above" option on the poll.

cbi1972 · Jul 11, 2017

I was a White Sox fan in the early 90s, and Sammy Sosa was known for two things.
1. His cannon arm. He could throw you out at home from the outfield like Bo Jackson.
2. Strikeouts. My god, would he whiff on some pitches. Averaging almost a strikeout per game, and it felt like more than that.

I really didn't follow baseball much after that, so I never really noticed how he turned into a 600 homer, Hall of Fame type player with the Cubs. To me, he'll always be that guy that had moments of brilliance, but routinely let me down. I can still hear Tom Paciorek say "Struck him ooouuuuut"

RammerJammer14 · Jul 11, 2017

I remember this topic came up on the radio in my town about 5yrs ago. One caller believed that they should be allowed in, since all the things they did were against other players on steroids. I thought it was an interesting perspective.

Bamabuzzard · Jul 11, 2017

RammerJammer14 said:
I remember this topic came up on the radio in my town about 5yrs ago. One caller believed that they should be allowed in, since all the things they did were against other players on steroids. I thought it was an interesting perspective.

IMO, that's irrelevant. The "problem" with steroids (as it relates to competitive advantages) is it keeps your body in it's prime for longer than it would without them. It expedites the healing process as well. Imagine Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth (the list could go on) having an additional 5-7 years in their prime. Think about the numbers they would have put up. McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro wouldn't have come close to their numbers, even being on steroids. Palmeiro, Andy Pettite and several other players who were willing to talk about it after they got caught explicitly said why they took them. It brought them off the DL quicker. Their bodies were able to do things at ages that most ballplayers at that age were declining. Yet they were playing like they were in their prime. It's a temporary fountain of youth.

If we want to put some numbers to it just take Aaron's, Mays', Mantle or Ruth's averages in a 5 year span of their best seasons. Get an average of the best five years they had and with those numbers project out another 5 years of their career and add to their actual career totals. These players were absolutely AMAZING without PED's. Yet the players mentioned above had to be on PED's to get in the same statistical category or barely beat the guys who did it without the help of juice.

bama_wayne1 · Jul 11, 2017

selmaborntidefan · Jul 11, 2017

I literally do not care at all.

The baseball Hall of Fame might have started as a way to honor players, but all you have to do is look at some of the insane choices who are in the Hall (Phil Rizzuto, Jesse Haines, Rube Waddell, Fred Lindstrom) and then say, "If the guy who hit the most home runs ain't here and the guy who got the most hits ain't here, why in the Hell do we even have a Hall of Fame?"

Sure they juiced, but they were facing juiced pitchers so who cares?

Look, I hate Barry Bonds (the Hillary of baseball players in my view), okay? He's a jerk solely for the purpose of being a jerk. But setting aside his jerkiness, was he by ANY standard one of the greatest players ever, juiced or not? Yes.

Then why isn't in he in the Hall?

I think A LOT of this is the tail end of the generation of sportswriters who started young and worshiped Hank Aaron not wanting to accept his record got broken. Does anyone think Aaron breaks it if he doesn't go to Atlanta, the easiest place to hit a major league home run from 1966-93, does anyone think he breaks Ruth's record? And then you had Ruth in "the House Built for Ruth" as a left-handed hitter with a short right field homer.

Give me a player, and I can give you a reason his record is tainted. Drysdale's strikeout record? The ump gave it to him. Hey, so too with Hershiser.

Guess I'm in a bad mood.

Relayer · Jul 12, 2017

None of those on the OP's list should be voted to the HOF.

TrueCrimson7 · Jul 12, 2017

None of the above.

If you are a teacher who grades on a curve and you notice a handful of students cheating on a test, do you...
A) Ignore it because the improved test average makes your class look really smart. (your class has never gotten much attention before)
B) Ignore it because the cheating students had done well on previous tests and likely would have done well without cheating this time
C) Ignore it because there were likely other more covert cheaters. (those who were caught were just trying to level the playing field)
D) Ignore it because students in previous classes had cheated and passed without punishment
E) Ignore it because the current cheaters seem smarter than some students who had previously passed your test
F) Fail the cheaters.

The Hall is graded on a curve...How did players of an era do compared with other players in that era? By putting Bonds, Clemens, etc. in, it is a de facto punishment players who did not use PEDs. The stats of the clean players don't seem as good.

If players are confirmed cheaters, don't let them in.

P.S. Bill, your argument of different sized ballparks is a valid one, unique to baseball among other major sports. It should be taken into account when evaluating hitters and pitchers for Hall of Fame admission.

CajunCrimson · Jul 12, 2017

TrueCrimson7 said:
None of the above.

If you are a teacher who grades on a curve and you notice a handful of students cheating on a test, do you...
A) Ignore it because the improved test average makes your class look really smart. (your class has never gotten much attention before)
B) Ignore it because the cheating students had done well on previous tests and likely would have done well without cheating this time
C) Ignore it because there were likely other more covert cheaters. (those who were caught were just trying to level the playing field)
D) Ignore it because students in previous classes had cheated and passed without punishment
E) Ignore it because the current cheaters seem smarter than some students who had previously passed your test
F) Fail the cheaters.

The Hall is graded on a curve...How did players of an era do compared with other players in that era? By putting Bonds, Clemens, etc. in, it is a de facto punishment players who did not use PEDs. The stats of the clean players don't seem as good.

If players are confirmed cheaters, don't let them in.

P.S. Bill, your argument of different sized ballparks is a valid one, unique to baseball among other major sports. It should be taken into account when evaluating hitters and pitchers for Hall of Fame admission.

Gaylord Perry (Spitters), George Brett (Pine Tar), Whitey Ford (Intentional Ball Scuffer) --

Is cheating the issue?

Does Tom Brady get in the NFL Hall of Fame using that criteria?

Bamabuzzard · Jul 12, 2017

TrueCrimson7 said:
None of the above.

If you are a teacher who grades on a curve and you notice a handful of students cheating on a test, do you...
A) Ignore it because the improved test average makes your class look really smart. (your class has never gotten much attention before)
B) Ignore it because the cheating students had done well on previous tests and likely would have done well without cheating this time
C) Ignore it because there were likely other more covert cheaters. (those who were caught were just trying to level the playing field)
D) Ignore it because students in previous classes had cheated and passed without punishment
E) Ignore it because the current cheaters seem smarter than some students who had previously passed your test
F) Fail the cheaters.

The Hall is graded on a curve...How did players of an era do compared with other players in that era? By putting Bonds, Clemens, etc. in, it is a de facto punishment players who did not use PEDs. The stats of the clean players don't seem as good.

If players are confirmed cheaters, don't let them in.

P.S. Bill, your argument of different sized ballparks is a valid one, unique to baseball among other major sports. It should be taken into account when evaluating hitters and pitchers for Hall of Fame admission.

I don't think it is because there's nothing illegal about it. Granted it's an inconvenient reality of the game. But there's nothing illegal about it. It's within the rules of the game. I'll give that argument to you if you're comparing and ranking players on an "All time greats list" of those in the HOF. But to consider that as a factor in whether they get into the HOF or not isn't a valid one. This type variable isn't unique just to baseball. Look at football players and the region of the country they play in and the differing degrees of weather. Some play in divisions in the southeastern part of the country where frigid winter weather is rarely a factor in their games. Then you've got teams that play in domes where they can create perfect playing conditions every game. Compared to teams in regions of the country that once winter sets in the weather conditions severely impact what they can and can't do strategically.

Bamabuzzard · Jul 12, 2017

CajunCrimson said:
Gaylord Perry (Spitters), George Brett (Pine Tar), Whitey Ford (Intentional Ball Scuffer) --

Is cheating the issue?

Does Tom Brady get in the NFL Hall of Fame using that criteria?

I think the punishment has to fit the crime. We don't issue the same punishment for someone running a stop sign as we do for someone breaking into someone's house and killing the homeowner. Both are criminals. But the resulting consequences of one's crime is more severe than another's. I know it will differ with the individual. But for me, scuffing a ball, putting "spit" on the ball is nowhere near as egregious as changing one's body chemistry to extend one's career and basically put one in a state of constant cheating.

Regarding "scuffing" and "spit" on the ball. The ball in the regular course of a game gets unintentionally scuffed, and many times stays in play for quite a while before being changed out or fouled off. Regarding "spit" on a ball. You can get the same result with sweat. Whether it be intentional or unintentional. In other words ball scuffing and "spitters" (though get a lot of attention and hooping and hollering) doesn't have the same degree of results that juicing does. It really doesn't.

Bazza · Jul 12, 2017

None on that list compares to the man who should already be in.......

tusks_n_raider · Jul 12, 2017

None of them should be allowed in the HOF. All of their stats should have asterisks beside them as well with previous record holders being restored to the #1 spots.

What's a shame though is that Bonds and Clemens were already on their way to being HOF worthy before the juicing. It made their already impressive talents beyond superhuman and almost comically over the top really.

The rest on the list wouldn't have sniffed their final career stats without the cheating.

CrimsonNagus · Jul 12, 2017

None.

And Pete Rose should be in!

Displaced Bama Fan · Jul 12, 2017

Sadly, had Roger Clemens said the same thing Andy Pettite did, he'd be in right now. All he had to say (truthfully or not) was "yes, I used HGH during my recovery period to expedite the healing process so that I could get back on the field and I didn't use it while I was actually playing."

He would have waltzed in to the HOF if he said that.

Bamabuzzard · Jul 12, 2017

tusks_n_raider said:
None of them should be allowed in the HOF. All of their stats should have asterisks beside them as well with previous record holders being restored to the #1 spots.

What's a shame though is that Bonds and Clemens were already on their way to being HOF worthy before the juicing. It made their already impressive talents beyond superhuman and almost comically over the top really.

The rest on the list wouldn't have sniffed their final career stats without the cheating.

Yep. Both were locks for the HOF. Granted, I don't think Bonds would have sniffed Aaron's hr record without being on roids. Again, the great benefit of juicing isn't helping you hit a baseball. Juicing keeps you in your prime anywhere from 5-7 years longer. Bonds' last seven years (age 35-42) he hit 272 hrs. That's an average of 38.86 HR's per year AFTER the age of 35. LOL! It also didn't help that his physical features (as did McGwire's and Sosa's) drastically changed during those years. They didn't even look real they were so big.

tusks_n_raider · Jul 12, 2017

Bamabuzzard said:
Yep. Both were locks for the HOF. Granted, I don't think Bonds would have sniffed Aaron's hr record without being on roids. Again, the great benefit of juicing isn't helping you hit a baseball. Juicing keeps you in your prime anywhere from 5-7 years longer. Bonds' last seven years (age 35-42) he hit 272 hrs. That's an average of 38.86 HR's per year AFTER the age of 35. LOL! It also didn't help that his physical features (as did McGwire's and Sosa's) drastically changed during those years. They didn't even look real they were so big.

That plus adding an absolute freakish boost in strength. Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa's HR's all started going ridiculous lengths. Plus who knows how many of their HR's would have just been deep fly balls before but because of the juice just made it over the wall.

I'm not sure if the stuff would make Clemens pitches faster or just help him maintain his natural velocity longer in life......but the hitters definitely were hitting the long ball longer......WAY longer.

Baseball Hall of Fame - Do Any From the Steroid Era that Belong?

Which of these players belong in the Hall of Fame?

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Mark McGwire

Sammy Sosa

Gary Sheffield

Rafael Palmiero

Mo Vaughn

Jose Canseco

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