White County, TN offers reduced sentences if you get a vasectomy

LA4Bama

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Fine. Opt out of the vasectomy/Norplant. I really don't see the problem.
If a KKK guy who lynched an African-American was paroled early on condition of not attending any more KKK rallies, would that violate his freedom of assembly?
First of all, your example is playing on an association that is not involved in the original case. The crime of lynching a black man is at least associated with KKK rallies, so the punishment that bans him from such rallies at least potentially relates to the crime. What crime is related to a vasectomy? If a man was convicted of "involuntarily impregnating" women and that was his only crime, and he wanted a vasectomy, I'd be willing to listen to reason in that weird, one off case. While I am against voluntary castration of rapist, at least I could see the connection there. But as a general policy, one that offers vasectomy to a thief, for example, this is not a punishment that fits a crime; this is a utilitarian calculation of governmental influence to promote a social agenda unrelated to the crime. It makes the punishment a form of manipulation. It makes the man an object of a social experiment.

Look, I get it, there is something very pragmatic about having options. I've actually wondered whether we couldn't solve our overcrowded prison issue by offering a convict the choice of x number of years or y number of lashes. If I had the choice to reduce a prison sentence by a significant amount of time by receiving a serious whipping, I honestly don't know what I would do but it is an interesting consideration.

However, the fact that you don't see a problem at all is surprising to me. You are talking about opting out, but as I understand it, it's a problem of offering an "opting in" under duress. There are things we should not promote as "opt in" options, and those are directly related to "opting in" to being disfigured by people who have power over you to hold you prisoner. We don't offer "opt in" to blind peeping Toms, and "opt in" to chop off the hands of thieves. And we shouldn't. You might say that a vasectomy is not the same form of disfigurement, but I'd argue it is equally concerning for a governmental agency to have such power. And yes, I get it Norplant is not permanent, but still, it is the temporary disability of a human bodily power. It enters into the fabric of the body and becomes internal to a person's intimate nature. It is the epitome of a place the government should not go. There are good reasons, grounded in human experience, for societies to have moved away from these kinds of disfigurement practices.
 

Tidewater

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Mar 15, 2003
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First of all, your example is playing on an association that is not involved in the original case. The crime of lynching a black man is at least associated with KKK rallies, so the punishment that bans him from such rallies at least potentially relates to the crime. What crime is related to a vasectomy? If a man was convicted of "involuntarily impregnating" women and that was his only crime, and he wanted a vasectomy, I'd be willing to listen to reason in that weird, one off case. While I am against voluntary castration of rapist, at least I could see the connection there. But as a general policy, one that offers vasectomy to a thief, for example, this is not a punishment that fits a crime; this is a utilitarian calculation of governmental influence to promote a social agenda unrelated to the crime. It makes the punishment a form of manipulation. It makes the man an object of a social experiment.

Look, I get it, there is something very pragmatic about having options. I've actually wondered whether we couldn't solve our overcrowded prison issue by offering a convict the choice of x number of years or y number of lashes. If I had the choice to reduce a prison sentence by a significant amount of time by receiving a serious whipping, I honestly don't know what I would do but it is an interesting consideration.

However, the fact that you don't see a problem at all is surprising to me. You are talking about opting out, but as I understand it, it's a problem of offering an "opting in" under duress. There are things we should not promote as "opt in" options, and those are directly related to "opting in" to being disfigured by people who have power over you to hold you prisoner. We don't offer "opt in" to blind peeping Toms, and "opt in" to chop off the hands of thieves. And we shouldn't. You might say that a vasectomy is not the same form of disfigurement, but I'd argue it is equally concerning for a governmental agency to have such power. And yes, I get it Norplant is not permanent, but still, it is the temporary disability of a human bodily power. It enters into the fabric of the body and becomes internal to a person's intimate nature. It is the epitome of a place the government should not go. There are good reasons, grounded in human experience, for societies to have moved away from these kinds of disfigurement practices.
I get all of that. If this option is taken off the table (which it probably will be), how is the prisoner's lot improved over having the choice and just opting not to take it?
Will a prisoner say, "Thanks goodness you took that choice away from me?"
 

LA4Bama

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I get all of that. If this option is taken off the table (which it probably will be), how is the prisoner's lot improved over having the choice and just opting not to take it?
Will a prisoner say, "Thanks goodness you took that choice away from me?"
In a word, yes. There are innumerable cases in which we are glad a choice which we would have opted for only out of desperation was taken away from us. People make bad bargains with the devil all the time. It's so common it is a motif of all human societies. However, it's not only about the convict; it is about the society and the practices we use on people. We don't want to be the devil making the offer.
 

cbi1972

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when scheduling the appointment, the nurse told me that i needed to show up shorn (cost cutting measure i guess). i proceeded to ask her for defined parameters.
My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low-grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a 15-year-old French prostitute named Chloé with webbed feet. My father would womanize; he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes, he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament ... My childhood was typical: summers in Rangoon ... luge lessons ... In the spring, we'd make meat helmets ... When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds — pretty standard, really. At the age of 12, I received my first scribe. At the age of 14, a Zoroastrian named Vilmer ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum — it's breathtaking ... I suggest you try it.
 

G-VilleTider

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In a word, yes. There are innumerable cases in which we are glad a choice which we would have opted for only out of desperation was taken away from us. People make bad bargains with the devil all the time. It's so common it is a motif of all human societies. However, it's not only about the convict; it is about the society and the practices we use on people. We don't want to be the devil making the offer.
Hmmm, so having options is somehow bad. That is the same type of "I know whats better for your life than you do" mentality that has completely "rurnt" both the democratic and republican parties for me. People, IMHO, should be free to make, in your opinion, bad choices. Why do so many people hate freedom?
 

LA4Bama

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Hmmm, so having options is somehow bad. That is the same type of "I know whats better for your life than you do" mentality that has completely "rurnt" both the democratic and republican parties for me. People, IMHO, should be free to make, in your opinion, bad choices. Why do so many people hate freedom?
You are just being ideological now. "Having options" is neither good nor bad until you know the concrete details around the options. It has nothing to do with telling people what they can do to themselves when they are not under duress. It has everything to do with telling the government what it cannot do to people in a so-called economic exchange, even if they are "willing". If you can't see the difference between those things, I don't think I can help you.
 

bama2112

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You both have good points, but there is no doubt that coercion is taking place. There is little reasonable doubt that a vasectomy would have no bearing on recidivism or any other relevant factor and is probably intended as a "cruel and unusual" punishment (or at least constitutes one).
How is it punishment in any form. He is giving them 30 days off their normal sentence. You do not have to volunteer just set in jail.
 

G-VilleTider

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You are just being ideological now. "Having options" is neither good nor bad until you know the concrete details around the options. It has nothing to do with telling people what they can do to themselves when they are not under duress. It has everything to do with telling the government what it cannot do to people in a so-called economic exchange, even if they are "willing". If you can't see the difference between those things, I don't think I can help you.
Where is the coercion? Where is the duress? (if there is or was, then I agree you have a valid point and I would be on your side of this arguement) All I see is a choice. They are free to choose. Why should you or I or anyone else get offended that they are given a choice? Personally, I think that Payday loan places that offer a small amount of money for outrageous interest rates to be much more morally offensive, but that certainly doesn't mean I think they should be illegal. Let people decide for themselves.
 

NationalTitles18

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May 25, 2003
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Where is the coercion? Where is the duress? (if there is or was, then I agree you have a valid point and I would be on your side of this arguement) All I see is a choice. They are free to choose. Why should you or I or anyone else get offended that they are given a choice? Personally, I think that Payday loan places that offer a small amount of money for outrageous interest rates to be much more morally offensive, but that certainly doesn't mean I think they should be illegal. Let people decide for themselves.
If you are confined forcefully then your freedom is no doubt curtailed and you are certainly under duress. In this case, government is the one forcefully confining you and curtailing your freedom then coercing you with a get out of jail early offer. It is the epitome of tyranny and the antithesis of choice that is free from government force or coercion. This is so clear that I can't believe anyone would make a serious argument stating just the opposite.
 

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