White County, TN offers reduced sentences if you get a vasectomy

G-VilleTider

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If you are confined forcefully then your freedom is no doubt curtailed and you are certainly under duress. In this case, government is the one forcefully confining you and curtailing your freedom then coercing you with a get out of jail early offer. It is the epitome of tyranny and the antithesis of choice that is free from government force or coercion. This is so clear that I can't believe anyone would make a serious argument stating just the opposite.
Unless I am misinformed here, there are ZERO negative consequences to not participating; the status quo is maintained. It seems the height of arrogance to me to say that they shouldn't be given this choice because (unsaid but implied) they aren't smart enough to decide for themselves. Forgive me, but who the hell do you think you are to think that you know what is best for them? Do you feel the same about programs that offer time off for working hard labor? (plenty of people choose hard labor as a career because that is what their skills are best suited for)

Should people be protected from "predatory payday loans", or should they be given the choice?

Should people not be allowed to participate in experimental drug/surgery treatments because they are desperate and dying or should they have the choice?

Should people not be allowed to quit their job and sell everything because they have an idea they think will make money? Sure, most fail, but some succeed spectacularly. Think of all the things that we wouldn't have without this freedom.

You call it "government force", but where is the force when they are given a choice and basically told absolutely nothing changes if you don't want to do this, but if you would like a free vasectomy, we will give you 30 days off your sentence?
 

NationalTitles18

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May 25, 2003
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Unless I am misinformed here, there are ZERO negative consequences to not participating; the status quo is maintained. It seems the height of arrogance to me to say that they shouldn't be given this choice because (unsaid but implied) they aren't smart enough to decide for themselves. Forgive me, but who the hell do you think you are to think that you know what is best for them? Do you feel the same about programs that offer time off for working hard labor? (plenty of people choose hard labor as a career because that is what their skills are best suited for)

Should people be protected from "predatory payday loans", or should they be given the choice?

Should people not be allowed to participate in experimental drug/surgery treatments because they are desperate and dying or should they have the choice?

Should people not be allowed to quit their job and sell everything because they have an idea they think will make money? Sure, most fail, but some succeed spectacularly. Think of all the things that we wouldn't have without this freedom.

You call it "government force", but where is the force when they are given a choice and basically told absolutely nothing changes if you don't want to do this, but if you would like a free vasectomy, we will give you 30 days off your sentence?
I'll try to answer in the order asked:

1. I'm me. That's who.

2. No. Labor is not permanent. Vasectomies are. Additionally, the intent is to permanently curtail a universally recognized and constitutional human right as part of the government's punishment for what are very likely completely unrelated crimes.

3. A free market implies no government force or coercion. Few markets are completely free, so even mostly free could be considered in this category by most people. To directly answer you, yes and no to each part. People should be able to choose, but government's role should be to protect from actions that are shocking to the conscience. IOW, people should be mostly free but should be protected from the most extreme and unconscionable actions of others. Where that line is drawn can be debated elsewhere.

4. Again, should people be able to freely engage in private conduct free from government force or coercion when they may receive some benefit from a drug or other treatment and doing nothing is likely to lead to certain death? Yes. The role of the FDA should be to protect the public from unsafe drugs. Unfortunately it often does not work this way and the FDA is actually a source of many problems in this sector. There is a need for an FDA which is not always what the FDA provides. Keeping people from potentially life saving treatments when the alternative is death is unreasonable and unconscionable government force interfering with the right to life and the freedom to choose what goes into your body.

5. Again, the government should not force or coerce anyone to not choose to start a business or create art or whatever they want to do other than work a steady job. Government should remain neutral on the matter.

6. The government force occurs when a person is incarcerated and continues until the moment they are released. The coercion occurs when the offer for early release in return for a vasectomy is given. All of this occurs under duress, which is legally recognized as a condition/action that may invalidate a contract, rendering it void and unenforceable. The government is causing the duress through its force. You assume the government has pure motives in doing so in the first place. I do not. It may, at times, make a mistake or worse yet intentionally frame someone to reach this desired outcome. Case in point: recent video of cops planting drugs at a scene without realizing their camera was recording video for 30 seconds prior to the cop hitting the record button and catching himself in the act.

You are turning the argument on its head by stating that a person should be free to choose under government force, coercion, and duress. The point of freedom is to make choices that are free from government interference. You are arguing that a sort of Sophie's Choice is really what freedom is all about. It's ridiculous on its face.

EDIT: Or stated more correctly, you are arguing that the government should be free to use the force of its power to coerce detained persons to "choose" permanent sterilization under duress in exchange for a paltry reduction in their sentence for a crime not remotely related to the ensuing punishment which is cruel and unusual when this very punishment has a history of being used by this same government to advance an abusive and tyrannical agenda of eugenics intended to curb the reproduction of those deemed "unfit" and which by and large remain the largest populations incarcerated by that government - those populations being the poor, mentally ill and challenged, and minorities.

You are not arguing for individual freedom. You are arguing for more abusive government power.
 
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RammerJammer14

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White County is 1.6% black, so obviously this policy is oriented towards that 1.6%, not the 96.6% white population.

I'm not sure how a voluntary program is unconstitutional.
Because you are coercing individuals to participate in an action that prohibits normal bodily function and health for "the greater good".

The purpose of this "choice" is pretty transparently based on an assumption that criminals are likely to beget more criminals and that as it is in society's interest to limit the number of criminals, we should sterilize them before more such undesirable people are on our hands. This is pretty much eugenics 101. I don't know about constitutionality, but it is certainly unethical.

To put it another way, would you be ok if the state offered a program where inmates were offered time off their sentence if they consented to experimental medical procedures or drugs? Perhaps lop off a limb to try out a new prosthetic in exchange for 5 less years?

This is probably the first time I have ever actually agreed with the ACLU.


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RammerJammer14

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Unless I am misinformed here, there are ZERO negative consequences to not participating; the status quo is maintained. It seems the height of arrogance to me to say that they shouldn't be given this choice because (unsaid but implied) they aren't smart enough to decide for themselves. Forgive me, but who the hell do you think you are to think that you know what is best for them? Do you feel the same about programs that offer time off for working hard labor? (plenty of people choose hard labor as a career because that is what their skills are best suited for)

Should people be protected from "predatory payday loans", or should they be given the choice?

Should people not be allowed to participate in experimental drug/surgery treatments because they are desperate and dying or should they have the choice?

Should people not be allowed to quit their job and sell everything because they have an idea they think will make money? Sure, most fail, but some succeed spectacularly. Think of all the things that we wouldn't have without this freedom.

You call it "government force", but where is the force when they are given a choice and basically told absolutely nothing changes if you don't want to do this, but if you would like a free vasectomy, we will give you 30 days off your sentence?
Well NationalTitles16 said it all pretty much, but what you are suggesting is the opposite of a free choice. The situation being discussed is one in which the government is already holding something over you, and is offering to ignore or reduce this in exchange for an action that you would not consent to under normal circumstances. This is like saying blackmail is a free choice.

It is also not LA4bama, NT16, or myself insisting that certain individuals are too stupid to make decisions for themselves. It is the government, this judge in particular, insisting that certain people are too stupid to even reproduce, and attempting to coerce them not to do so.


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Crimson1967

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There is also the possibility the guards could make life more unpleasant for those who do not choose to participate in the program.

"Since you'll be here another month, meet your new cell mate".



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CajunCrimson

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I would rather not shorten a sentence at all. If the laws need to be changed because a penalty is deemed too severe, then change them. But the days of taking advantage of those without options, should have been over for decades.

You want to deter crime....there are much better ways to make that happen.
 

Tidewater

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I had to go back an examine the premises upon which I based my view on this subject. I guess this issue reminds me of the International Monetary Fund telling countries that the IMF will make loans to those governments on the condition that they open up their economy a bit and get rid of inefficient state-owned enterprises (which tend not to respond well to market forces and thus tend to become inefficient money pits for government money). Some people have condemned the IMF interfering in a sovereign state's economic decisions. The IMF's response is, "Fine. Don't accept the loan." The issue is the recipient countries want the loan but don't want to comply with the conditions of the loan.

On the other hand, my left-wing (Bernie supporter) lawyer buddy, who defends knuckleheads for the Commonwealth and does a lot of guardian ad litem work for underage children who are the offspring of said knuckleheads, is fine with sterilization of young knuckleheads, because he has to help the Commonwealth clean up the human wreckage when reckless, irresponsible, and thoughtless people reproduce (e.g. neglect child, child abuse, child molestation). He said most of his knucklehead clients would be happy with a free vasectomy in exchange for a 30-day curtailment (in fact, they would see it as a win-win situation). They could continue to sow their wild oats without producing children they have neither the capacity nor intention of caring for, and spend less time in jail.
 

IMALOYAL1

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Many crimes are committed for drug money. Some get early release or no time at all if they agree to some form of drug, alcohol treatment. Sometimes it's mandatory.

Alexandra, 21, was indicted in 2016 after her newborn baby girl was born addicted to heroin. Pregnant for a second time, Laird was arrested again last year after authorities say she admitted to using heroin three times a day.......is in trouble again after authorities say she left treatment and then smuggled drugs to other patients at UAB Hospital.
 
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