I wonder if he got to take the fish with him .... 'cause of the manners and whatnot.i saw a response to this whole thing basically saying that even absent the dismissive stuff about women, pretty much anyone in a large company (especially a lower level staffer) that wrote and circulated company wide a 10 page memo criticizing the hiring and training practices of the company would be having a long talk with their boss and would probably be crap-canned or seriously reprimanded.
Can you show me what in his 10 pages led you to this conclusion?I agree. I have a sister in law that I would put up against any man here and I'd bet on her, think Brienne of Taarth for the GoT fans
but his screed is dismissive of all women and that kind of attitude can become entrenched leading to a feedback loop that exasperates the problem. Leads to women not wanting to work in the field, leads to men keeping their daughters away (my FiL for instance who argued his daughters didn't "need to know math or science" but for darn sure his Son's did) and women being held back for promotion or even being treated seriously by male coworkers/bosses. I've seen it all first hand over my career and have exploited the heck out of it frankly getting some astoundingly brilliant female employees who were easy to hire away due to being stuck working for and with Neanderthals that couldn't possibly listen to a woman's solutions especially if it was right. Their loss, my gain
I still think some folks haven't actually read it.Can you show me what in his 10 pages led you to this conclusion?
The idea that female employees only got hired to meet an affirmative action quota, and the doubt that this view casts on female achievement, sound like an eloquent argument for getting rid of affirmative action programs. They are unconstitutional anyway.I know far too many great, brilliant technical women to agree with him though sadly I know a lot of guys like him in this industry. Convinced, evidence be damned, that every woman they meet in our field is either there because of their looks or some sort of affirmative action scenario. The folks on this thread who can't conceive of how that creates headwinds that men simply don't face would astound me if I didn't know them better at this point
i read the whole thingI still think some folks haven't actually read it.
This was interesting:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opi...sity-its-science/article35903359/?service=amp
I had not read the entire thing, got the jist and thought that enough but decided that was unfair so I read it this morning in full and my opinion has not changed.i read the whole thing
i was going to say, you didn't miss much.I had not read the entire thing, got the jist and thought that enough but decided that was unfair so I read it this morning in full and my opinion has not changed.
no I didn't. I know enough guys like him that I predicted most of what he would say from the intro. Got to say though, I love his use of footnoting as if he is providing evidence and then the footnotes are actually just his explanations of the comment with nothing at all behind them.i was going to say, you didn't miss much.
but it's scholarly.no I didn't. I know enough guys like him that I predicted most of what he would say from the intro. Got to say though, I love his use of footnoting as if he is providing evidence and then the footnotes are actually just his explanations of the comment with nothing at all behind them.
i read the whole thing
Fair enough. We just comprehend it differently. Did either of you read the article I linked, by chance?I had not read the entire thing, got the jist and thought that enough but decided that was unfair so I read it this morning in full and my opinion has not changed.
I didn't but I also skipped an article that posited the exact opposite that his claims were totally without scientific merit.Fair enough. We just comprehend it differently. Did either of you read the article I linked, by chance?
I'm not out to make champions or martyrs of people who circulate 10 page memos about their place of employment. But its interesting to me that this guy gets torched by the same crowd that lauds Colin Kaepernick. Supposedly, both were trying to "start a conversation" about something in society they believed was harmful. Of course, it jeopardized the employability for both, so I'd agree with those who have said it probably wasn't smart to speak up in the first place.
For the record, I don't have a daughter but if I did, she would be encouraged to pursue her interests without judgment either way, and expected to do her best in all subjects. If she ended up an engineer or a home maker, I'd be proud of her. I've got 2 sisters. My parents are very old fashioned. Neither sister was ever encouraged to "stay in her lane" or not to take STEM subjects. Maybe we were an exception to what has been the norm. I really don't know.
I think its worth the read. An excerpt, which may be referring to the article you are talking about:I didn't but I also skipped an article that posited the exact opposite that his claims were totally without scientific merit.
Many people, including a former Google employee, have attempted to refute the memo’s points, alleging that they contradict the latest research.
I’d love to know what “research done […] for decades” he’s referring to, because thousands of studies would suggest otherwise. A single study, published in 2015, did claim that male and female brains existed along a “mosaic” and that it isn’t possible to differentiate them by sex, but this has been refuted by four – yes, four – academic studies since.
oddly for me I am not particularly interested in the Science of it as I know without question that men and women are different. He may even be largely right on the differences between men and women but it simply doesn't matter as they lead to universal generalizations that are harmful to the individual. Where does he even consider that the women that walk in the door at Google are not a reflection of all women at large (or all men for that matter)? He doesn't and that is a huge problem. He wants to say "women are this way" without noting that the women at Google or Silicon Valley differ from women as a whole. I know several googlers personally, men and women and "to a man" they are largely different that society as a whole. Just as Southerners are different from Americans and Americans are different from People as a whole. Sure most Americans are fat, lazy and stupid, look up the science of it, but that is hardly a reason to discount them as a whole group as he seems to want to with women.I think its worth the read. An excerpt, which may be referring to the article you are talking about:
oddly for me I am not particularly interested in the Science of it as I know without question that men and women are different. He may even be largely right on the differences between men and women but it simply doesn't matter as they lead to universal generalizations that are harmful to the individual.
Google Memo said:My larger point is that we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology.
Where does he even consider that the women that walk in the door at Google are not a reflection of all women at large (or all men for that matter)? He doesn't and that is a huge problem. He wants to say "women are this way" without noting that the women at Google or Silicon Valley differ from women as a whole.
Google Memo said:Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.”
...
Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions.
I know several googlers personally, men and women and "to a man" they are largely different that society as a whole. Just as Southerners are different from Americans and Americans are different from People as a whole. Sure most Americans are fat, lazy and stupid, look up the science of it, but that is hardly a reason to discount them as a whole group as he seems to want to with women.
...Google Memo said:I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism).