Income Inequality

CrimsonForce

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But that's precisely my point. I should have been clearer (see the previous link), but most UBI proposals replace existing social services that are rendered to those below a certain income threshold. The simplified idea is that a baseline income can replace most of the needs that government programs currently provide to the very poor, which eliminates the disincentive to seek additional work or pay raises that may render someone ineligible for certain benefits under the current system.
My problem isn't with providing assistance to those who need it - it's the longevity that a lot of people stay on that assistance. I'm sorry, but 10 years or more of being on assistance is just to long of time. I don't know the exact answer because most of the time children are involved so we couldn't just pull the plug after a certain number of years but don't you agree there should be some type of limitation of time or dollars for folks receiving assistance?
 

crimsonaudio

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But that's precisely my point. I should have been clearer (see the previous link), but most UBI proposals replace existing social services that are rendered to those below a certain income threshold. The simplified idea is that a baseline income can replace most of the needs that government programs currently provide to the very poor, which eliminates the disincentive to seek additional work or pay raises that may render someone ineligible for certain benefits under the current system.
So everyone receives the UBI?
 

Bamabuzzard

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But that's precisely my point. I should have been clearer (see the previous link), but most UBI proposals replace existing social services that are rendered to those below a certain income threshold. The simplified idea is that a baseline income can replace most of the needs that government programs currently provide to the very poor, which eliminates the disincentive to seek additional work or pay raises that may render someone ineligible for certain benefits under the current system.
Unless there is a strict way to control what and how the UBI was spent, this would turn into nothing more than the same money pit welfare programs already in place. Because I can promise you the first thing that would happen (if how the funds were spent weren't heavily controlled), would be the recipients would claim it wasn't enough and would need more. The government would then up the amount of the UBI. It still wouldn't be enough and it would be upped again. This would repeat itself over and over until it became the same out of control money pit our current programs have become.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Yep. Tax season was almost akin to the lottery. Most people would get between $4K-$8K back and would be spent on lavish vacations or other luxurious items. There was one person who put her tax money towards bettering herself and she ended up with a masters degree and got out of that system. She was ridiculed for it also..
Yep. My aunt is one of these people. Had more than three kids out of wedlock, knows EXACTLY how much she can make in reported income in order to receive her $6,000+ EIC money each year, on top of getting the maximum amount of money from the government on a monthly basis. Her line of thinking is (because she's said out loud to several family members who have confronted her) "Why should I try to get a job that requires me to work more to make more. When I get the same amount of total money and benefits by keeping my income where it is and letting the government provide the rest?" I've literally heard her say this and I promise you she's not the only person in this country who thinks and operates like this.
 

uafan4life

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Yep. My aunt is one of these people. Had more than three kids out of wedlock, knows EXACTLY how much she can make in reported income in order to receive her $6,000+ EIC money each year, on top of getting the maximum amount of money from the government on a monthly basis. Her line of thinking is (because she's said out loud to several family members who have confronted her) "Why should I try to get a job that requires me to work more to make more. When I get the same amount of total money and benefits by keeping my income where it is and letting the government provide the rest?" I've literally heard her say this and I promise you she's not the only person in this country who thinks and operates like this.
"Why work hard when I can just get my check?"

The first time I heard that phrase, it was preceded with "My momma always says"...
 

CajunCrimson

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I'm all for providing assistance to those who have true mental/physical limitations.

I'm also for providing short-term assistance for those who are down on their luck..... but, there should be work expectations for that assistance. Community clean up, Meals on Wheels, etc.

But -- there are too many in the system that are corrupt. Too many outside that are corrupt. Not enough non-corrupt to effectively monitor the system. So -- long story short -- it can't work. It will be just an out of control money grab.....

The rich will still be rich. The poor will still be poor. The middle folks will still be in the middle.....the only difference is how many will you shift from "middle" to "poor"
 

CharminTide

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Unless there is a strict way to control what and how the UBI was spent, this would turn into nothing more than the same money pit welfare programs already in place. Because I can promise you the first thing that would happen (if how the funds were spent weren't heavily controlled), would be the recipients would claim it wasn't enough and would need more. The government would then up the amount of the UBI. It still wouldn't be enough and it would be upped again. This would repeat itself over and over until it became the same out of control money pit our current programs have become.
I agree. But I don't think that's a reason to avoid discussing or eventually attempting the idea.

There hasn't been a UBI experiment on a grand enough scale to truly speak in terms of evidence. But Alaska has a conceptually similar program -- Alaskans receive a ~$2k check from the state every year to do with as they please. Obviously this a smaller amount than any serious UBI proposal, but research has shown that Alaskans getting "free money" from the state does not cause people to leave the workforce: LINK.
 

CharminTide

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Honest question... Do you have faith in our Federal Government to properly institute and run such a system?
Sure. Compared to existing programs, there's very little bureaucracy involved in simply cutting a check or awarding tax credits to everyone. Alaska seems to do it just fine.
 

Bamabuzzard

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*I agree. But I don't think that's a reason to avoid discussing or eventually attempting the idea.

There hasn't been a UBI experiment on a grand enough scale to truly speak in terms of evidence. But Alaska has a conceptually similar program -- Alaskans receive a ~$2k check from the state every year to do with as they please. Obviously this a smaller amount than any serious UBI proposal, **but research has shown that Alaskans getting "free money" from the state does not cause people to leave the workforce: LINK.
*I'm not against discussing it. I just don't think people in government would have the rocks to let people suffer the consequences of wasting their UBI. Children would be used as pawns (as they are now) and they'd keep increasing the funds given. So why waste anyone's times discussing something that has the same fundamental problem as the program you're trying to replace? No accountability or consequences.

**I wouldn't think there would be much temptation to leave the workforce over $2,000/year. LOL!
 

bama_wayne1

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Doesn't the same thing occur with tax cuts. Everyone gets to keep a basic amount of money. Oh wait people shining the seat of there britches on the sideline don't pay taxes....
 

cbi1972

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One of the best arguments I have seen for UBI is the tendency for low-skilled jobs to be displaced by technology.

I mean, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a double elimination tournament held a few times a year to thin out the herd of useless people, but if we really have to keep them around, it might be a better option than creating perverse incentives and a morass of complicated tax code.
 

Tidewater

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At its most basic, I attribute the income disparity to freedom. Americans have the opportunity to make self-destructive choices. The biggest of these, in my view, are: 1. having a child out of wedlock, 2. abusing drugs and 3. dropping out of high school/not getting a free HS education. Eliminate peoples' opportunity to make those three mistakes and a lot of the poverty in these United States would resolve itself.
But we value freedom.

My view of the income disparity is that:
(a) some people do not want to make the choices necessary to undertake social mobility.
(b) some people are seemingly sprinting on a treadmill

Folks in group (a) have my sympathy, but giving them money is not going to help them much. Folks in group (b) should be helped as much as possible.
Knowing which group a specific individual falls into is the tough question.
Resources are limited.
 

seebell

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One of the best arguments I have seen for UBI is the tendency for low-skilled jobs to be displaced by technology.

I mean, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a double elimination tournament held a few times a year to thin out the herd of useless people, but if we really have to keep them around, it might be a better option than creating perverse incentives and a morass of complicated tax code.
The Purge Part IV, Stalking the Poor.:eek:
 

CajunCrimson

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/lisa-macleod-announcement-1.4768626

The Ontario basic income pilot project is coming to an end, says Children, Community and Social Services Minister Lisa MacLeod.

MacLeod said Tuesday that the project was expensive, and "clearly not the answer for Ontario families."

She said the ministry would have "more details at a later date" about how the government would end the project.

Close to 4,000 people were enrolled in the basic income pilot program in Thunder Bay, Lindsay, Hamilton, Brantford and Brant County.

The pilot project started in April 2017. It was originally set to last three years, and explore the effectiveness of providing a basic income to those living on low incomes — whether they were working or not.

Under the project, a single person could have received up to about $17,000 a year, minus half of any income he or she earned. A couple could have received up to $24,000 per year. People with disabilities could have received an additional $6,000
 

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