Dre Kirkpatrick thinks Saban was outcoached in CFPCG

Yes, a very tough spot to be in. But should Coach Saban take some blame for either a) retaining Kiffin for a 3rd year when the relationship was clearly strained or b) not moving Sark up immediately when Kiffin got the FAU call ? CNS is one of the very best ever, but he's not perfect and ca't be right all the time. I think he should at least get a little of the blame on the OC mess, cause he is the HR guy at Bama.

JDCrimson said:

Having to fire your OC the week of the NC is the Nancy Kerrigan equivalent of getting a lead pipe to the knees. I call that handicapped not out coached.

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Re: Dre Kilpatrick thinks Saban was outcoached in CFPCG

CrimsonTheory said:

Maybe. But Clemson still needed an unbelievable performance from SR QB Watson (a late TD) and a freshman performance by a freshman (Hurts) for Clemson to squeaked by Alabama.

So, I'm going to disagree with Dre. Not the finest performance by Saban and the coaching staff but outcoached.....that's stretching it.

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You're right, including two illegal pick plays. :wink:

bamacpa said:

Yes, a very tough spot to be in. But should Coach Saban take some blame for either a) retaining Kiffin for a 3rd year when the relationship was clearly strained or b) not moving Sark up immediately when Kiffin got the FAU call ? CNS is one of the very best ever, but he's not perfect and ca't be right all the time. I think he should at least get a little of the blame on the OC mess, cause he is the HR guy at Bama.

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One single play in that game goes different and Saban's last-second move of Sark to OC is considered a genius move - ESPECIALLY the Ardarius Stewart trick pass play.

We lose and folks want to peel the layer of the onion away going back three years.

We were not the first team to replace the OC prior to a national championship game; in 1990, Gerry DiNardo left Colorado for the Vandy job and Gary Barnett's very first game as OC was the 1991 do or die Orange Bowl against Notre Dame. Granted, there is one major difference: Barnett took over on December 3, so he had nearly a month to set his own game plan whereas Sark had slightly over a week. But given that Sark had already spent three months as a consultant, it's not like he was clueless about the abilities of our offensive players.

Furthermore, 'blaming Saban' ASSUMES there's blame to be placed, and I'm not sure that approach is fruitful. It's like everyday life - folks usually do the best they can with the hand they're dealt. Yes, there are exceptions.

Now, is Saban ultimately RESPONSIBLE for who is OC? Yes, he is. But anyone who wishes to blame Saban for this better never again blame Nussmeier for the poor play calling at the end of the 2012 ATM game, either - since Saban is the one who hired him (and that's what's being said here with Kiffin).

selmaborntidefan said:

One single play in that game goes different and Saban's last-second move of Sark to OC is considered a genius move - ESPECIALLY the Ardarius Stewart trick pass play.

We lose and folks want to peel the layer of the onion away going back three years.

We were not the first team to replace the OC prior to a national championship game; in 1990, Gerry DiNardo left Colorado for the Vandy job and Gary Barnett's very first game as OC was the 1991 do or die Orange Bowl against Notre Dame. Granted, there is one major difference: Barnett took over on December 3, so he had nearly a month to set his own game plan whereas Sark had slightly over a week. But given that Sark had already spent three months as a consultant, it's not like he was clueless about the abilities of our offensive players.

Furthermore, 'blaming Saban' ASSUMES there's blame to be placed, and I'm not sure that approach is fruitful. It's like everyday life - folks usually do the best they can with the hand they're dealt. Yes, there are exceptions.

Now, is Saban ultimately RESPONSIBLE for who is OC? Yes, he is. But anyone who wishes to blame Saban for this better never again blame Nussmeier for the poor play calling at the end of the 2012 ATM game, either - since Saban is the one who hired him (and that's what's being said here with Kiffin).

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I backed off - somewhat - the idea that CNS got outcoached, though I do thing Clemson wins that category with scouting the refs and knowing that they'd get away with being very physical on the edges. But the example of the TAMU game in 12 isn't the same. An OC is given leeway in a series more often than not, but after the first quarter of the Clemson game until midway through the fourth, we were stale and predictable. Someone should have least made certain the offense ran an addition ten seconds off the play clock - and ultimately that has to land on Saban. Doesn't make him a bad coach but it may mean that Dabo got to say "checkmate." Further, I don't know anyone who would have said it was "genius" to put Sark in for Kiffin. I think most people - especially those of us who know what a cancer Kiffin was - would have just breathed a sigh of relief.

Now that said, we were in a position to win until the final drive when a combination of bad officiating and Clemson heroics - no defendings that pass that Leggett (?) caught - combined to do us in. I overstated the blame Saban thing but again, if we're getting down to the nub of it, I don't think Dre was wrong to say what he did.

CrimsonProf said:

I backed off - somewhat - the idea that CNS got outcoached, though I do thing Clemson wins that category with scouting the refs and knowing that they'd get away with being very physical on the edges. But the example of the TAMU game in 12 isn't the same. An OC is given leeway in a series more often than not, but after the first quarter of the Clemson game until midway through the fourth, we were stale and predictable. Someone should have least made certain the offense ran an addition ten seconds off the play clock - and ultimately that has to land on Saban. Doesn't make him a bad coach but it may mean that Dabo got to say "checkmate." Further, I don't know anyone who would have said it was "genius" to put Sark in for Kiffin. I think most people - especially those of us who know what a cancer Kiffin was - would have just breathed a sigh of relief.

Now that said, we were in a position to win until the final drive when a combination of bad officiating and Clemson heroics - no defendings that pass that Leggett (?) caught - combined to do us in. I overstated the blame Saban thing but again, if we're getting down to the nub of it, I don't think Dre was wrong to say what he did.

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I am with you on backing off since I have read through all of the posts reminding me of the whole game. I just think maybe we could have anticipated the illegal pick play once again on the goal line since it worked the first time. Maybe the db's should have jumped the route because they really had nothing to lose at that point. Like I said earlier, they were put in a very tough situation with the pick play on the goal line.

Re: Dre Kilpatrick thinks Saban was outcoached in CFPCG

bamaslaw said:

Dre brings up an interesting point about them scoring twice on the same type of play.

I've often wondered since if Saban had to spend more time managing the offense that game than he normally would have, given the OC situation.

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Wasn 't that the play where OPI was totally ignore both times?Tough to coach that one.

Con said:

I am with you on backing off since I have read through all of the posts reminding me of the whole game. I just think maybe we could have anticipated the illegal pick play once again on the goal line since it worked the first time. Maybe the db's should have jumped the route because they really had nothing to lose at that point. Like I said earlier, they were put in a very tough situation with the pick play on the goal line.

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So what do you do? Back off? Play zone? Switch? All of those adjustments create space, which is exactly what he did by blocking off the line. The fouls on both those plays were so atrocious and blatant that I'm pretty sure no adjustment would've worked. Usually pick plays are rubs or bumps, these guys grabbed and set themselves like they were blocking for a screen play.


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I decided I would humble myself this Friday morning and look back at the play. Now, I'm going to cry at my desk the rest of the day.

Actually looks like Marlon is trying to push Artavis Scott (the outside WR) down to go get Renfrow, but Scott cuts his legs out from him. Tony gets hit by Marlon's legs, which slow him down and make him take a wider angle. Therefor, Renfrow is open for the catch.

Re: Dre Kilpatrick thinks Saban was outcoached in CFPCG

CoastGhost said:

Wasn 't that the play where OPI was totally ignore both times?Tough to coach that one.

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That's completely fair.

I thought the first was way more of a pick than the second, but as some point it just is what it is - if the refs don't call a foul, what can you really do?

RTR91 said:

I decided I would humble myself this Friday morning and look back at the play. Now, I'm going to cry at my desk the rest of the day.

Actually looks like Marlon is trying to push Artavis Scott (the outside WR) down to go get Renfrow, but Scott cuts his legs out from him. Tony gets hit by Marlon's legs, which slow him down and make him take a wider angle. Therefor, Renfrow is open for the catch.

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I had hoped to never see that again.

Re: Dre Kilpatrick thinks Saban was outcoached in CFPCG

RTR91 said:

I decided I would humble myself this Friday morning and look back at the play. Now, I'm going to cry at my desk the rest of the day.

Actually looks like Marlon is trying to push Artavis Scott (the outside WR) down to go get Renfrow, but Scott cuts his legs out from him. Tony gets hit by Marlon's legs, which slow him down and make him take a wider angle. Therefor, Renfrow is open for the catch.

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There is another angle out there where Humphrey raises his hands like Brown messed something up. I could be wrong but I have a feeling someone didn't do their job here.

crimsonaudio said:

Bama didn't lose because of a pick play, legal or not.

Bama lost because the offense couldn't hold the ball long enough to let the defense catch its breath.

The reason I give Dabo credit is he knew he could wear Bama down and guess what? He did it. If the D had any energy left in the fourth quarter, they don't score 21 points in the 4thQ. The defense was sucking wind by the end of the first half, what adjustments were made to slow things down in the second half? Did Bama slow down on offense? Not that I can tell.

Dabo walked in with less talent and a good plan and beat a better team. I don't care for Dabo, but I give him credit on this one.

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So, everyone has less talent than us but Clemson is damn close. Ohio State and LSU might be the only other 2 teams in the country with more talent than Clemson. Don't discredit how well they have done bringing in talent. Also, they had the clear advantage at QB which impacts the game disproportionately. I don't know that we can definitively say we were the better team. Just to be clear I'm not trying to take credit away from Dabo, he deserves credit for the talent he has stockpiled there and he's a great coach.

And, I don't want to hate on the offensive but you can only slow the game down so much when you have only 1 drive that lasts longer than 4 plays in the entire 2nd half. Some of this was on the play calling but a lot of it was on execution as well IMO. I think play calling gets a little too much of the blame sometimes because even on drives where we ran the ball we didn't go anywhere. I will say there were way too many QB runs and not enough RB runs though. I mean seriously look at our drives in the 2nd half...

4 plays, 7 yards - Ended in field goal. (this was after a Clemson fumble)

3 plays, 7 yards - Punt from own 12 yard line (punt only goes 30 yards)

3 plays, 0 yards - This was just awful play calling here so I'll give you that. 3 straight passing plays

4 plays, 79 yards - big play by OJ for 68 yard TD

4 plays, 18 yards - after getting the 1st down on a Harris run we proceed to run the ball with Jalen for no gain and then throw the ball 2 times

3 plays, 6 yards - Hurts run for 3 yards, Jacobs for 3 yards, Hurts for no gain

3 plays, 3 yards - Harris run for 3 yards, 2 straight incomplete passes

6 plays, 68 yards- our final drive and easily the best one of the half. Arguably, the only reason this drive worked out was a trick play with Stewart completing a pass to OJ.

The offense just couldn't move the ball consistently no matter what it did and while the play calling was questionable the players didn't help the play calling out a whole lot either.

Clemson's front seven was just nasty. Can't ignore that.


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this is getting to the point that it's like watching video of yourself being stood up at the altar.
it's time to let it go.

Re: Dre Kilpatrick thinks Saban was outcoached in CFPCG

RollTide_HTTR said:

And, I don't want to hate on the offensive but you can only slow the game down so much when you have only 1 drive that lasts longer than 4 plays in the entire 2nd half. Some of this was on the play calling but a lot of it was on execution as well IMO. I think play calling gets a little too much of the blame sometimes because even on drives where we ran the ball we didn't go anywhere. I will say there were way too many QB runs and not enough RB runs though. I mean seriously look at our drives in the 2nd half...

4 plays, 7 yards - Ended in field goal. (this was after a Clemson fumble)

3 plays, 7 yards - Punt from own 12 yard line (punt only goes 30 yards)

3 plays, 0 yards - This was just awful play calling here so I'll give you that. 3 straight passing plays

4 plays, 79 yards - big play by OJ for 68 yard TD

4 plays, 18 yards - after getting the 1st down on a Harris run we proceed to run the ball with Jalen for no gain and then throw the ball 2 times

3 plays, 6 yards - Hurts run for 3 yards, Jacobs for 3 yards, Hurts for no gain

3 plays, 3 yards - Harris run for 3 yards, 2 straight incomplete passes

6 plays, 68 yards- our final drive and easily the best one of the half. Arguably, the only reason this drive worked out was a trick play with Stewart completing a pass to OJ.

The offense just couldn't move the ball consistently no matter what it did and while the play calling was questionable the players didn't help the play calling out a whole lot either.

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Execution wasn't great, but play calling can have an impact on that. If it's predictable, the defense can blowup the play, so execution is crap.

And the numbers suggest the staff could have slowed down the offense some. Post from another thread where the topic was discussed:

RTR91 said:

Saban couldn't tell Sark "maybe wait 10-15 seconds before deciding the play?" That's the one area I believe Kiffin would have made a difference against Clemson.

We averaged 23 seconds per play against Clemson (obviously includes between plays). The only game less than that? Mississippi State, which was 22.8 seconds. The average time per play for Kiffin's 13 games is 26.6 seconds.

Who knows exactly if it makes a difference, but when the game winning touchdown is scored with less than 3 seconds left, one has to wonder.

With a tired defense, a slower drive could have made a pretty big impact.

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Re: Dre Kilpatrick thinks Saban was outcoached in CFPCG

RTR91 said:

Execution wasn't great, but play calling can have an impact on that. If it's predictable, the defense can blowup the play, so execution is crap.

And the numbers suggest the staff could have slowed down the offense some. Post from another thread where the topic was discussed:

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Yea, I don't mean to absolve play calling. It clearly wasn't great. But the team as a whole wasn't executing and the team deserves some of the blame for that. And I don't want to turn this into a Jalen thread but his passing deficiencies really hurt us against Washington and Clemson. But again, play calling was mediocre at best for most of those drives.

A simple switch could have been communicated there, but then you give Watson the choice to run it in for the score...which I don't think he would have gotten with Anderson closing in and Minkah behind him 2-3 yards.

I'm still of the belief that the lack of ball control after the Scarborough exit was what killed us and thus, this drive would have probably been a garbage TD. It seemed like the game plan on offense was to run the ball and not put JH in any position to have to throw the ball much. However, I'm still puzzled to as why DH/JJ wasn't used as much, and especially Harris since he was the leading rusher for the season.

Secondly, when you throw 8 screen plays in the first half, 3 are dropped/tipped at the LOS, and the rest going for minimal yardage, you gotta know JH wasn't prepared to have a significant role in throwing the ball downfield in the first place and I'm not sure if Kiffin would have called it differently.

In watching the video up above, it seems that Brown was a little flat footed and he stumbled when the receiver went under the pick. I wonder if Brown wouldn't have tripped would he have had enough speed to have made that play?

RTR91 needs to ban himself for posting a video of that play. I hoped I would never see it again.

I watch all of our losses eventually.


I've not yet rewatched the 2010 Iron Bowl (three national titles, but never got around to it).

Or that one. I may never watch that one again.

Look, I give Clemson credit. Had they LOST that close of a game not a single soul in this country would have made a Buffalo Bills comparison.

But I feel like Whitey Herzog after the Don Denkinger call and the meltdown in the 1985 World Series. He did an interview with The Sporting News and in essence he said: "Look, it'll go down as they beat us, okay? And they DID outhit us, they outpitched us, they outscored us. But we STILL should have won the damned thing." He further went on to note that the problem (at that time) was you should NOT have AL and NL umpires, you should only have MLB umpires - he pointed out that with an AL ump behind the plate, the AL pitcher had a different strike zone than the NL guy. And I watched what he was talking about and have to agree. That problem is gone, now, but that's part of the problem with the officiating.

I mean, Big 12 officials aren't exactly up to speed on how legal blocking works....