Tidewater said:

For a state that did not secede until after the President called for troops to overthrow elected state governments, this was a monument to soldiers who fought to defend constitutional liberty and self-government.

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The intention doesn't really matter if it conflicts with common perception. Their proper place is a museum, IMO, not a public space.

MobileCrimson said:

It's already started.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/13/thomas-jefferson-statue-vandalized-at-william-mary/

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Thanks for the link; I'd missed that story from earlier this year.

CharminTide said:

The intention doesn't really matter if it conflicts with common perception. Their proper place is a museum, IMO, not a public space.

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Mob violence is not how this should be done.

And that is some sweet postmodern juju you've got going on there.

CharminTide said:

The intention doesn't really matter if it conflicts with common perception. Their proper place is a museum, IMO, not a public space.

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Well, I'd say that the twisted lump of bronze is no longer fit for museum display either.

Not that anybody cares at this stage, but here is Governor Ellis' response to President Lincoln's call for troops to overthrow elected state governments:

Gov. John W. Ellis said:

"Your dispatch is received, and if genuine, which its extraordinary character leads me to doubt, I have to say in reply, that I regard the levy of troops made by the administration for the purpose of subjugating the states of the South, as a violation of the Constitution, and as a gross usurption of power. I can be no party to this wicked violation of the laws of the country and to this war upon the liberties of a free people. You can get no troops from North Carolina."

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If slavery was the original sin of the United States in 1787 (which some have argued), then the anti-democratic action of the North 1861-1877) was the original sin of Lincoln's "new birth of freedom." All kinds of evil flow inevitably from that second original sin.

CharminTide said:

The intention doesn't really matter if it conflicts with common perception. Their proper place is a museum, IMO, not a public space.

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IOW, ignorance is bliss. Don't disturb anyone with truth about history.

I mean, I get what you are saying to a point. This general attitude is part of the problem on both sides. People want to have history remember things their skewed way instead of the truth. I have a problem with that and unruly mobs. I have a problem with hate groups and the people who would curtail our rights to shut them up. I have lots of problems lately. (and boy, ain't that the truth)

CharminTide said:

The intention doesn't really matter if it conflicts with common perception. Their proper place is a museum, IMO, not a public space.

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So perception/opinion and the decisions/actions that result are now defensible even when they are based on a lack of knowledge?

CrimsonProf said:

I'm not talking about run of the mill Democrats - Joe Biden and friends - but Antifa. That's who tore down that statue. I had friends who travelled with the ANSWR/IAC protest circuit after 9/11. Look them up. They'll keep pushing this issue as long as they can.

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Understood. Similarly, it's not the run of the mill Republicans who drive cars into crowds of people, it's the extreme fringe. What's worrying is that, when Trump urges his supporters to violently oppose protesters, that slowly shifts the rightmost violent fringe into more acceptable territory. That, in turn, creates a counter-response on the extreme left. It's not a sustainable situation.

As an aside, that's one issue with forcing a two-party system. Let us have a neo-Nazi party and a crystal healing anti-vaccine party to dilute the crazy fringe from each side of the spectrum. They'll never get more than 5% of the vote. But then neither of the serious parties will have to claim them, and we can have more productive conversations that don't require toeing the line between alienating and appeasing the extremists of your own voting bloc.

crimsonaudio said:

I'll say this: I hate me some Nazis and white supremacists - I think they signify just about everything wrong with humanity.

But I also hate people who think violence against someone because they don't like that person's ideas are okay. These people talking about how it's okay to 'punch a Nazi' tick me off as much as the hateful racists.

You want to resort to violence because you don't like someone's ideas? Better be prepared for what you might be starting.

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My fear is this is only going to get worse. There are people all over who seem to want to go to war with one another. I'm about ready to let them go to a cage match "Hunger Games" style. Only one walks out and then they are alone forever. I'm sick of people who just want to wrong another because of their race, creed, color, religion, or whatever. Leave others the hell alone to live the life they see fit.

Tide1986 said:

So perception/opinion and the decisions/actions that result are now defensible even when they are based on a lack of knowledge?

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In the land of reality, you simply cannot use swastikas to denote Buddhist temples on maps any longer. It would be broadly offensive to the majority of people in the world, most of whom will not have studied the intricacies of ancient Japanese cartography in order to realize that this symbol has no association with ethnic cleansing. It may not be fair to the Buddhists, but the land of reality is often unfair.

So, too, is it with monuments to the Confederacy.

You watch - they'll go after monuments to the Confederacy on battlefields, as well.

Glad I have pictures of Jackson at Bull Run, and the Alabama troops at Gettysburg.

CharminTide said:

In the land of reality, you simply cannot use swastikas to denote Buddhist temples on maps any longer. It would be broadly offensive to the majority of people in the world, most of whom will not have studied the intricacies of ancient Japanese cartography in order to realize that this symbol has no association with ethnic cleansing. It may not be fair to the Buddhists, but the land of reality is often unfair.

So, too, is it with monuments to the Confederacy.

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They should be removed democratically - not violently - and not with people in this country who knew family who knew the troops for whom those monuments were built. The past is not so past.

They just pulled down a statue in Durham.

http://wncn.com/2017/08/14/proteste...nument-in-front-old-durham-county-courthouse/

Anti-fascists going all fascist on us.

CrimsonProf said:

Mob violence is not how this should be done.

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I completely agree.

Rumor has it, they are after Ole Sam on I-45 north of Houston. That would be a fatal mistake if they attempted that.

jthomas666 said:

Overgeneralize much?

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No, since I was responding to the specific leftist mindset in the quoted link.

Y'all remember this?

Destroying History Is Now Being Charged As A War Crime

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Displaced Bama Fan said:

They just pulled down a statue in Durham.

http://wncn.com/2017/08/14/proteste...nument-in-front-old-durham-county-courthouse/

Anti-fascists going all fascist on us.

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“People can be mobilized and people are angry and when enough people are angry, we don’t have to look to politicians to sit around in air conditions and do nothing when we can do things ourselves,” said Takiyah Thompson, a protester.

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So, you're saying you don't like representative democracy?

ETA: and that you enjoy mob rule. I pity you when the mob comes to you.

This is not the way to go about doing any of this.

Watching those ignorant fools kicking that statue, just what exactly did they think they were accomplishing?

Yes, things will only get worse. I'm not crazy about bringing my kids up in 1960s America or Weimer Germany.