Poll: For our African-American posters, which of these flags do you see as racist symbols?

Which of these flags do you see as racist symbols?

  • Any and all Confederate flags

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • First official flag of the Confederacy

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Second official flag of the Confederacy

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Third official flag of the Confederacy

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Confederate Battle Flag

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Confederate Navy Jack

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • No Confederate flags

    Votes: 5 45.5%

  • Total voters
    11

Tidewater

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Jefferson Davis said:
The principle of State sovereignty and independence … was regarded by the fathers of the Union as the cornerstone of the structure.
Davis said:
The principle of the sovereignty of the people [was] the cornerstone of all our institutions. ... The Confederate States … drew their swords for the sovereignty of the people, and they fought for the maintenance of their State governments in all their reserved rights and powers.
Robert Toombs said:
The cornerstone of this Government was the perfect equality of the free, sovereign, and independent States which made it.
Why does Stephens' "cornerstone" take precedents over Davis's and Toombs'? Just because it fits the argument (i.e. opposition to the Confederacy)?

As for racial attitudes, it is unfortunately a little more complex than the "North = noble, racially enlightened / South = evil racial bigots.
In the January 1861, James Russell Lowell reviewed Sydney George Fisher, The Laws of Race, as connected with Slavery. (Philadelphia: W.P. Hazard. 1860).
Fisher (of Philadelphia) derived the three following conclusions:
“The white race must of necessity, by reason of its superiority, govern the negro, wherever the two live together.”
“The two races can never amalgamate, and form a new species of man, but must remain forever distinct, — though mulattoes and other grades always exist, because constantly renewed.”
“Each race has a tendency to occupy exclusively that portion of the country suited to its nature.”
These conclusions are “higher laws,” which “must rule our politics and our destiny, either by the Constitution or over it, either with the Union or without it; and no wit or force of man is strong enough to resist them.”
Lowell was “fully persuaded” that “these propositions express, or at least point the way to, essential truths.”
Lowell differed with Fisher in that he did not believe these differences were permanent. Lowell believed that “in the States that lie on the Gulf of Mexico the negro has found a congenial climate and obtained a permanent foothold.” He called this “new Africa.” Here, "free, civilized, and prosperous communities are brought face to face, as it were, with the mixed and degenerating populations of the Slave country.” Southerners were degenerate because they lived in the midst of black people. “The question” Lowell felt, was “whether New England or New Africa shall extend her limits, — whether the country shall be occupied a century hence by a civilized [northern] or by a barbarous [southern] race.”
All was not lost. Give Africans the Gulf states and keep them there. "There is no room in the United States, or in any of their unsettled territory, for the expansion of this transatlantic Africa. Where the black race is now settled it will stay, but it must be confined within its present limits.”

The next month in the Atlantic Monthly, New England journalist James Shepherd Pike wrote, “We say, the Free States should say, confine the negro to the smallest possible area. Hem him, coop him up, slough him off. Preserve just so much of North America as is possible for the white man and to free institutions.”
In other words, Pike could not care a toss about the slaves. He just did not want black people to pollute any more of the US their presence.

This was enlightened (Harvard-educated) New England opinion of the day. I believe Fisher, Lowell and Pike were fairly representative of northern opinion on race. Davis' views on race was not that different from these men's. Probably none of them had met an educated, literate black man, so imagining one was probably difficult. We live in an American where we've had a black man as president and the sky did not fall in, but men and women from this era did not have the same benefit.
 
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CharminTide

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Why does Stephens' "cornerstone" take precedents over Davis's and Toombs'? Just because it fits the argument (i.e. opposition to the Confederacy)?
I see you didn't even bother to read my post. I quoted Davis, who stated that black people were not fit to rule themselves, bore an inherent mark of inferiority to white people, and that the Confederacy meant to enshrine that inferiority through the institution of slavery.

As for Robert Toombs, here's what he angrily said on the floor of the U.S. Senate, before returning to Georgia and joining the Confederate government:

"We want no negro equality, no negro citizenship; we want no negro race to degrade our own; and as one man [we] would meet you upon the border with the sword in one hand and the torch in the other."


James Russell Lowell
Did you really just cite a random dude from Pennsylvania, whose only political appointment was once serving as an RNC delegate to Rutherford Hayes, as ideologically representative of the north in the same manner that the President and Vice President of the Confederacy were to the southern states?

James Shepherd Pike
Another random dude with no affiliation to northern government.

Sydney George Fisher
And again.
 

uafan4life

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Charmin, honest question...

Do you believe that, in the 1850s, the average citizen of the Northern States was less racist than the average citizen of the Southern States?
 

CharminTide

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Charmin, honest question...

Do you believe that, in the 1850s, the average citizen of the Northern States was less racist than the average citizen of the Southern States?
I have no idea, but I don't see how that's relevant. The northern states didn't try to separate themselves from the Union and codify the right to enslave blacks into their Constitution.
 

Tidewater

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You really don't seem to know much about that time period, young padawan, so listen up. I don't want to have to repeat myself.

In Lincoln's home state, it was illegal to be black.
Under this [Illinois "black code"] law, no black from another state could remain within the Illinois borders for more than ten days. Beyond ten days and he or she was subject to arrest, confinement in jail, and a $50 fine and removal from the state. If unable to pay the fine, the law directed the sheriff to auction the offending African-American to the bidder willing to pay the costs and the tine and to work the "guilty" party the fewest number of days. If the convicted man or woman did not leave within ten days after completing the required service, the process resumed, but the fine was increased $50 for each additional infraction.

You do bring however, an interesting question about the authoritativeness of sources. Which is more authoritative, the Confederate Secretary of State or the President of the United States?
Abraham Freaking Lincoln said:
I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]---that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
(Roy P. Basler (ed.), Works of Abraham Lincoln. (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press, 1953), vol. 3, p. 146)

Nineteenth century America is much more complex than your cartoon view. It is not a mine from which you can extract whatever decontextualized "fact" you can did up to support your 21st century position. These were real people dealing with real (and often intractable) problems.
Was the Confederate Secretary of State speaking for all southerners, but Lincoln somehow not speaking for all northerners?

Lowell was not some irrelevent racist schlub. He was a Harvard educated editor of one of the most significant northern periodicals of the day. His views probably reflected those he grew up with and was educated with. As editor of the Atlantic Monthly, he helped shape the racial views of countless white northerners.

As for the recent blow-up, Lee declined to support the unconstitutional and antidemocratic policy of the Federal government. If today Trump were to order the army to overthrow every state government with a Democratic majority (under the ridiculous pretense that they do not have "a republican form of government," as required by the Constitution of the United States), should soldiers just salute smartly and commence to kicking Democrat butt? Or is there a larger principle at stake?
Or does it simply boil down to "ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" after all? Whatever the president directs is ipso facto constitutional?

If your mind is truly open (and I hope it is), listen to Donald Livingston and his talks about the North and the moral challenge of slavery and the South and the moral challenge of slavery.
If you mind is simply closed, then just admit you are a bigot and move on to the next issue. Life is too short to tilt at windmills.
 

CharminTide

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You really don't seem to know much about that time period, young padawan, so listen up. I don't want to have to repeat myself.
TW, your reflexive arrogance is incredibly off-putting and undercuts the rest of your post. This is hardly the first time. Grow up.


As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure what you're responding to. You seem to be attacking a strawman argument that no one in the North held racist views, be they scholars or elected officials. This is certainly not an argument that I've made -- people are racist today, so why would I begrudge the 19th century of racial discord? -- so I have frankly no idea why you're addressing it.

Actions are far, far more significant than mere rhetoric and scholarship. Why were Davis' and Stephens' words singularly important? Because they were detailing the beliefs which compelled them to break away from the Union and form a new nation that legally enshrined human bondage. They described the institution of slavery as foundational to their ideal government. They wrote protections for it into their Constitution, as did multiple southern states.

Here's the difference: Lincoln may have held racist views, but he didn't break away from the Union in order to ensure the continued enslavement of blacks. He ultimately freed southern slaves. While certainly a decision that was largely tactical during the war, he also campaigned fiercely afterwards to establish the 13th Amendment, banning the practice of slavery in all states and territories. He won, obviously, and the U.S. Constitution was amended. Your attempts to paint him as some racist equivalent to Confederate leaders is absurd. Actions matter.
 

jthomas666

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Tidewater

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TW, your reflexive arrogance is incredibly off-putting and undercuts the rest of your post. This is hardly the first time. Grow up.
I've evidently read a lot more about the period than you have. Toughen up. More importantly, read! Not the intellectual cotton candy of people you agree with. Engage in the hard intellectual labor of reading people with whom you disagree and thinking for yourself why you disagree with them.
As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure what you're responding to. You seem to be attacking a strawman argument that no one in the North held racist views, be they scholars or elected officials. This is certainly not an argument that I've made -- people are racist today, so why would I begrudge the 19th century of racial discord? -- so I have frankly no idea why you're addressing it.
Because when you are presenting a disembodied quote it shows an incredibly shallow understanding of a complex period in American history.
Racist quotes abound from the period. We can all note how racist they were, but we live in a county in which a black man has served as president without the sky falling in.
People from this period did not have the benefit of that experience. They could not imagine how emancipation would play out. They had two examples to go one: Haiti and Jamaica. In Haiti, the black population murdered the entire white population. In Jamaica, the tiny white population left and the island went into an economic tailspin. It was possible that the South would just become an economic basket case (which is what in fact happened due to the war to prevent southern independence). But the alternative of a genocidal race war was a very real possibility for white southerners in 1860, whether they owned slaves or not. (John Brown's first victim in his "war to end slavery" was a free black man). In fact, Republicans (Lincoln friend John Wentworth of Chicago) predicted that would be the result and even tried to bring about that end (Republican senators William Seward of NY and Henry Wilson of Mass., for example, knew about John Brown’s murderous raid on Harper’s Ferry a year and a half before the act and told no one). Which is why the non-slaveholding white population joined in the fight for independence suffered 25% fatalities. They did not believe they were preventing the emancipation of slaves (most did not own slaves). They believed they were preventing the genocide of their families that is why they fought so hard and so long.
Actions are far, far more significant than mere rhetoric and scholarship. Why were Davis' and Stephens' words singularly important? Because they were detailing the beliefs which compelled them to break away from the Union and form a new nation that legally enshrined human bondage. They described the institution of slavery as foundational to their ideal government. They wrote protections for it into their Constitution, as did multiple southern states.
This is where you are wrong. Mr. Secession, Robert Barnwell Rhett of South Carolina, said that once the South left the Union, the problem would be keeping northern states out of the southern confederacy.
Rhett said:
If the North were to allow us, from their stupid fanaticism, to dissolve our union with them, I am satisfied that it will require not more than two years’ experience, to reconstruct a union with them, if we could trust them, upon just such terms as we shall think proper to dictate. The difficulty would be, not to get them into, but to keep them out of, a Southern Confederacy.
No point, Rhett believed in importing the moral problem you had just seceded from.
This was because, as Thomas Jefferson foresaw, a moral principle can wreak terrible havoc on the body politic (like abortion opponents in today's America, but much worse). In the debate over the admission of Missouri as a slave state, Jefferson wrote:
Thomas Jefferson said:
This momentous question, like a fire bell in the night, awakened and filled me with terror. I considered it at once as the knell of the Union. It is hushed indeed for the moment. But this is a reprieve only, not a final sentence. a geographical line, coinciding with a marked principle, moral and political, once conceived and held up to the angry passions of men, will never be obliterated; and every new irritation will mark it deeper and deeper. I can say with conscious truth that there is not a man on earth who would sacrifice more than I would, to relieve us from this heavy reproach, in any practicable way. the cession of that kind of property, for so it is misnamed, is a bagatelle which would not cost me in a second thought, if, in that way, a general emancipation and expatriation could be effected: and, gradually, and with due sacrifices, I think it might be. but, as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.
Toombs and Davis described the "cornerstone" of the system, at least as far as they saw it, as something else. And Stephens, by the way, was an anti-secession Georgian (having been a Whig before the demise of that party). Having been defeated in his political efforts to prevent secession, like George Wallace a century later, he decided never to be "outdone" on the issue of the relations of African-Americans.
Here's the difference: Lincoln may have held racist views, but he didn't break away from the Union in order to ensure the continued enslavement of blacks. He ultimately freed southern slaves.
Actually, no. Lincoln's belief, up to the last few weeks of his life, was that it was best to deport African-Americans "home" to Africa. They could not remain in America after emancipation.
Davis trained his slaves on his plantation to understand and apply the legal system of trial by a jury of one's peers, to prepare them for the day when they would be free.
Neither created the system of African slavery, but which one had the more humane reaction to it and set about preparing for the day when African-Americans would be free?
While certainly a decision that was largely tactical during the war, he also campaigned fiercely afterwards to establish the 13th Amendment, banning the practice of slavery in all states and territories.
My goodness. Have you ever read the text of the original XIII Amendment (2 March 1861)?
Original XIII Amendment said:
No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.
No amendment abolishing slavery would ever be made to the Constitution. This amendment would have made slavery forever up to the states. Forever. Read, man! And think!
What did Lincoln say about that amendment?
Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address said:
I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service ... holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.
Lincoln had no problem making slavery permanent and irrevocable. As long as the African-Americans stayed out of the north and the west.
He won, obviously, and the U.S. Constitution was amended. Your attempts to paint him as some racist equivalent to Confederate leaders is absurd. Actions matter.
Indeed. When a federal officer declares his intention to violate both the principles of democracy and the provisions of the Constitution, I think the honorable thing is to refuse to participate. One may not be able to stop it, but one does not have to participate and support the endeavor. That is a distinction worth remembering, in my view. Slavery is gone forever (and good riddance to it), but the question of the extent of federal powers is as alive today as it was in 1861.


Okay, to humor me a bit (I have not earned this privilege, but please humor me) and answer two questions:
1. When did the United States become a unitary state from which a member state could not legally leave? Don't pontificate, please just give me a date.
2. Which provision of the United States Constitution delegates to the general government the power to overthrow, by military force, elected republican state governments and replace them with appointed military governments? Please just give me the chapter and verse, "Article ___, Section ___."

I think you will find the exercise enlightening.
 
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Tidewater

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Lincoln may have held racist views, but ... he ultimately freed southern slaves.
Lincoln said:
On the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free
January 1 said:
Now, therefore I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, … do, on this first day of … designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States, the following, to wit:
Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.
The London Spectator declared (October 11, 1862):
“The government liberates the enemy's slaves as it would the enemy's cattle, simply to weaken them in the . . . conflict. … The principle is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States.”
Earl Russell in England declared:
“The Proclamation … appears to be of a very strange nature. It professes to emancipate all slaves in places where the United States authorities cannot exercise any jurisdiction … but it does not decree emancipation . . . in any States, or parts of States, occupied by federal troops … and where, therefore, emancipation … might have been carried into effect. … There seems to be no declaration of a principle adverse to slavery in this proclamation.”
So, Lincoln freed the slaves he had no authority to free, but he held in bondage all of the slaves over whom he had authority to free. To those slaveowners, he declared, "If you are loyal to my government, you can retain your slaves."
 
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92tide

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I'm trying to challenge the man to explore ideas beyond his comfort zone.
Are you opposed to doing that?

Isn't living in the echo chamber the issue over which we condemn Fox News listeners?
how do you know that he hasn't already explored those ideas and found them wanting. just speaking for myself, i find that to be the case quite often on this board.
 

Tidewater

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how do you know that he hasn't already explored those ideas and found them wanting. just speaking for myself, i find that to be the case quite often on this board.
That's exactly the point.
If you disagree with a position, please present the arguments and evidence why you disagree with them.
That enables debate.
 

92tide

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That's exactly the point.
If you disagree with a position, please present the arguments and evidence why you disagree with them.
That enables debate.
as i have mentioned many times here, i don't enable debate with the guy in downtown atlanta holding the sign saying gays are going to burn in hell even though i disagree with him vehemently.
 

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