US destroyer collides with merchant ship near Singapore

Tug Tide

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I have worked on offshore tugboats for the last 16 years. I'm currently a Mate on a tug/barge with a combined length overall of just shy of 500'. Maneuvering large vessels in close proximity to each other is very unique skill, one I'm constantly learning new things about.
Obviously, without details of what happened and just as importantly when, it's endless speculation. In a collision between 2 vessels, generally the investigation will find each with a percentage of blame.

The number of factors that could have contributed to these accidents is endless;
anything from mechanical failure to human mistakes could have caused this.
The truth is it's usually a combination of both of those.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I have worked on offshore tugboats for the last 16 years. I'm currently a Mate on a tug/barge with a combined length overall of just shy of 500'. Maneuvering large vessels in close proximity to each other is very unique skill, one I'm constantly learning new things about.
Obviously, without details of what happened and just as importantly when, it's endless speculation. In a collision between 2 vessels, generally the investigation will find each with a percentage of blame.

The number of factors that could have contributed to these accidents is endless;
anything from mechanical failure to human mistakes could have caused this.
The truth is it's usually a combination of both of those.
This is really truer of most auto accidents than most people realize. Alabama still has the rule (or did - not my field) that any scrap of contributory negligence bars recovery by the plaintiff. Some states, recognizing that view situations are black and white, have a "relative negligence" rule, which allows the jury to apportion responsibility...
 

cuda.1973

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We now have The Hacking Theory:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/20050/navy-being-hacked-aaron-bandler

“There’s something more than just human error going on because there would have been a lot of humans to be checks and balances,” Jeff Stutzman, an ex-information warfare specialist in the Navy, who now works at a cyber threat intelligence company, told McClatchyDC.

"When you are going through the Strait of Malacca, you can't tell me that a Navy destroyer doesn't have a full navigation team going with full lookouts on every wing and extra people on radar," he said.

Itay Glick, the founder of cyber security firm Votiro, told news.com.au that the possibility of cyber interference was the first thing that came to his mind when he heard about the incident.

“I don’t believe in coincidence,” Glick told the website.
To prevent collisions, ships are supposed to use an automatic identification system to broadcast their locations to other vessels. Navy ships can turn this off for operational reasons, so investigators also will look into why a collision warning didn’t alert the two ships in time.
Adding to the suspicion that hacking may be involved, is the fact the U.S.S. McCain crash was the fourth such incident to plague the U.S. Navy's 7th Fleet in the span of a year. The U.S.S. Louisiana, U.S.S. Lake Champlain and U.S.S. Fitzgerald have all been involved in crashes over that timeframe and all while stationed in Yokosuka Naval Base in Japan.
Navy Admiral John Richardson tweeted that while there is no evidence yet the crashes have been caused by hacking, but it is something they're looking into:

2 clarify Re: possibility of cyber intrusion or sabotage, no indications right now...but review will consider all possibilities
— Adm. John Richardson (@CNORichardson) August 21, 2017
If they do find evidence, what are the chances they will admit it?

Zero. Can't let the bad guys know we are on to them.

Which will lead to another conspiracy theory.

Or:

All that said, the Strait of Malacca is an incredibly narrow waterway that results in a lot of traffic and putting ships at a higher risk of crashing, so it's possible that the McCain fell victim to the Strait's many perils. But if they were hacked by the likes of China and Russia, it would be a serious problem that needs to be addressed by the president immediately.
No matter what the reason, that will be the official answer.

Better than admitting we were hacked, or all the deck hands were stoned..............
 

Tug Tide

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The problem with the hacking theory is that all electronics are basically aids to navigation. Your eyes, experience and situational awareness can't be hacked. Yes, radar is a long range scanning tool, but in close quarters it doesn't see anything a capable mariner doesn't.
I read an article recently that said the Navy had discontinued teaching Celestial Navigation a few years ago, but is reinstating it. Apparently there are concerns about the cyber security of GPS. Maybe the watchstanders involved have become to reliant on the technology integrated into the bridge.
 
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Elefantman

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Sounds like a failure of one or more of these three: policy, procedures, or training. We may have the most advanced weapon systems in the world but they are useless unless you have properly trained personnel to operate them.
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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Sounds like a failure of one or more of these three: policy, procedures, or training. We may have the most advanced weapon systems in the world but they are useless unless you have properly trained personnel to operate them.
8 years of downsizing and purging of experienced officers from all branches leads to mishaps like this...and the future "ain't" lookin' bright either with Don tweeting instead of leading.
 
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SavannahDare

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The problem with the hacking theory is that all electronics are basically aids to navigation. Your eyes, experience and situational awareness can't be hacked. Yes, radar is a long range scanning tool, but in close quarters it doesn't see anything a capable mariner doesn't.
I read an article recently that said the Navy had discontinued teaching Celestial Navigation a few years ago, but is reinstating it. Apparently there are concerns about the cyber security of GPS. Maybe the watchstanders involved have become to reliant on the technology integrated into the bridge.
Exactly! Over reliance on technology is the true problem here. With vessels this size, it's not like collisions happen without any warning. There are sailors on watch on the bridge nonstop. Their ONE JOB is to be on the lookout for anything the technology doesn't see. I find myself more and more wondering when our sailors stopped actually sailing these vessels, and there's no other answer I come up with other than "when they started relying more on the machines than their own skills." It's disappointing to say the very least.
 

Elefantman

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Exactly! Over reliance on technology is the true problem here. With vessels this size, it's not like collisions happen without any warning. There are sailors on watch on the bridge nonstop. Their ONE JOB is to be on the lookout for anything the technology doesn't see. I find myself more and more wondering when our sailors stopped actually sailing these vessels, and there's no other answer I come up with other than "when they started relying more on the machines than their own skills." It's disappointing to say the very least.
Aviation has the same problem, to much reliance on the navigation and auto pilot system has been a major factor in many accidents. Pilots sometimes keep messing with the auto pilot and don't just turn it off and fly the darn thing.
 

Tide1986

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Exactly! Over reliance on technology is the true problem here. With vessels this size, it's not like collisions happen without any warning. There are sailors on watch on the bridge nonstop. Their ONE JOB is to be on the lookout for anything the technology doesn't see. I find myself more and more wondering when our sailors stopped actually sailing these vessels, and there's no other answer I come up with other than "when they started relying more on the machines than their own skills." It's disappointing to say the very least.
Aviation has the same problem, to much reliance on the navigation and auto pilot system has been a major factor in many accidents. Pilots sometimes keep messing with the auto pilot and don't just turn it off and fly the darn thing.
Imagine the coming explosion of self-driving cars.
 

cuda.1973

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Over-reliance on technology is one of my pet peeves.

In an industry that basically is technology, the problem is worse. If the computer model says "x, y, z", then that is gospel. Never mind if your intuition tells you it will never work. Intuition seems to be a lost art, in the realm of technology.

When we were kids, we built stuff. We learned, through trial and error, what worked and what didn't. But today's "engineers" grew up with video games, and that basically formed their world. Which leads to the "we'll fix it, in s/w" approach, because the computer is their world. And why it will constantly break. That is the new norm.

It carries over to this situation. The computer will tells us when the coast is clear. Never mind it could flake out...............that would never happen. Or that it isn't designed to work in the way that you want to believe it is supposed to work. In either case, humans are supposed to be the final set of checks and balances.

My gut tells me you have a bunch of guys (and/or gals) standing around, looking at the "technology" and not the real world. Regardless if it was a glitch, a design deficiency, or the dreaded hacking, why wasn't anyone paying attention to the real world? That is the first place to start, as that should be operating procedure.

And since it was not.............."Hey, Admiral................you're fired."
 

Tide1986

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SIAP

http://www.realcleardefense.com/art...us_warships_keep_having_accidents_112174.html

AIS is a system mandated by the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) through the Safety of Life at Sea Convention (SOLAS). It applies to all commercial vessels of 300 gross tonnage and upwards engaged on international voyages, cargo ships of 500 gross tonnage and upwards not engaged on international voyages, and passenger ships carrying more than 12 passengers. AIS equipped vessels and shore-based stations automatically send and receive identification information to improve navigational safety, help in situational awareness, and provide a means to assist in collision avoidance. However, AIS is not mandatory for warships under the principle of sovereign immunity.

Commercial vessels make much use of AIS to talk to each other when they think they're going too close, to avoid collisions, or to tell another ship what they intend to do. A problem arises if a merchant ship is unable to contact another vessel because it’s not showing AIS. By day this is not a problem as the other vessel can be visually identified. If it’s a warship, a call can be made on Channel 16 (Emergency VHF), such as ‘Warship on my port bow what are your intentions?' By night, however, a vessel can only see the lights of the other vessel, and particularly when many other vessels are in its vicinity, it does not know which vessel to talk to. Interactions between vessels are also more difficult by night because there is greater risk of bridge personnel losing perspective.
 

Tidewater

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Over-reliance on technology is one of my pet peeves.

In an industry that basically is technology, the problem is worse. If the computer model says "x, y, z", then that is gospel. Never mind if your intuition tells you it will never work. Intuition seems to be a lost art, in the realm of technology.

When we were kids, we built stuff. We learned, through trial and error, what worked and what didn't. But today's "engineers" grew up with video games, and that basically formed their world. Which leads to the "we'll fix it, in s/w" approach, because the computer is their world. And why it will constantly break. That is the new norm.

It carries over to this situation. The computer will tells us when the coast is clear. Never mind it could flake out...............that would never happen. Or that it isn't designed to work in the way that you want to believe it is supposed to work. In either case, humans are supposed to be the final set of checks and balances.

My gut tells me you have a bunch of guys (and/or gals) standing around, looking at the "technology" and not the real world. Regardless if it was a glitch, a design deficiency, or the dreaded hacking, why wasn't anyone paying attention to the real world? That is the first place to start, as that should be operating procedure.

And since it was not.............."Hey, Admiral................you're fired."
I met a US Navy officer serving on a Royal Navy ship as an exchange officer.
He said the Royal Navy was much less reliant on technology than the US Navy was.
For example, want to know how close you are to another warship? In the US Navy, the bridge officer would use a computer/GPS-based program.
In the RN, the bridge officer would take out some naval binoculars, measure the apparent size of the other vessel in degrees/minutes/seconds, go to the Jane's Warships of the World, look up how tall that ship is from waterline to the tallest portion of the mast, and then do trigonometry to derive the distance. Serving on the RN ship made this US Navy Lieutenant a much better seaman, he said.
 

Tidewater

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