The Secondary
- Thread starter Jkl0802
- Start date
Earle, is this the "issue" the NFL coaches have with how Saban teaches DB's to cover? I know we've had several discussions over the years that when our DB's get to the NFL they are "untaught" what Saban has taught them regarding covering WR's. Is this what they are "unteaching"?
This^^^ Averitt was in a good position but just got beat by a bigger man. A lot of db's give up a few inches because players over about 6'3" usually doesn't have the skill sets to play the position.
There are two, very simple reasons as to why it seems like our DBs lose out on jump balls more than other teams:
1) we remember the mistakes, bad plays, etc. our team makes more so than those of another team, and
2) it does happen more often.
The first reason is obvious and self-explanatory. The second reason is a bit more complicated.
Our DBs are involved in more 50/50 balls - especially down-field - than are those of most other teams, in part due to the fact that our DBs don't get badly beaten on routes very often. This, in and of itself, means that some passes that would hit wide-open receivers against other teams end up being 50/50 balls against us. Another part is that our opponents are more likely to desperately, intentionally throw up 50/50 balls to try to make something happen against our defense. Making 50/50 balls a part of your game-plan is an act of desperation; you're willing to take a 25%-50% risk of a turnover for the chance of a making a big play. You know going in that our defense is going to force you into a lot of bad plays. On the other hand, one big play for every two bad plays equals first downs all the way down the field - just like two bad shots plus one great shot, on the golf course, can leave you in a position to make par.
So, most teams try to throw more 50/50 balls against us because they know they must; they aren't going to be able to methodically drive the ball on us enough to win.
We, on the other hand, rarely if ever make 50/50 balls a part of our game-plan because we know that we don't need to do that to win.
1) we remember the mistakes, bad plays, etc. our team makes more so than those of another team, and
2) it does happen more often.
The first reason is obvious and self-explanatory. The second reason is a bit more complicated.
Our DBs are involved in more 50/50 balls - especially down-field - than are those of most other teams, in part due to the fact that our DBs don't get badly beaten on routes very often. This, in and of itself, means that some passes that would hit wide-open receivers against other teams end up being 50/50 balls against us. Another part is that our opponents are more likely to desperately, intentionally throw up 50/50 balls to try to make something happen against our defense. Making 50/50 balls a part of your game-plan is an act of desperation; you're willing to take a 25%-50% risk of a turnover for the chance of a making a big play. You know going in that our defense is going to force you into a lot of bad plays. On the other hand, one big play for every two bad plays equals first downs all the way down the field - just like two bad shots plus one great shot, on the golf course, can leave you in a position to make par.
So, most teams try to throw more 50/50 balls against us because they know they must; they aren't going to be able to methodically drive the ball on us enough to win.
We, on the other hand, rarely if ever make 50/50 balls a part of our game-plan because we know that we don't need to do that to win.
I tend to get more animated about this issue myself and have to breathe before I post about it during a game.
But the 1st and mainly the only time I got hot this week was a case of me jumping to conclusions. It was the previously mentioned AA play but on the replay he actually defended it about as good as humanly possible. The WR was just taller. So I quickly retracted my complaint to those around me.
But overall I still personally don't like the 'way they are taught'. It's too conservative in relation to how much talent we have. Everyone is fast enough to recover from taking a peak. It seems like the guys who play the best back there 'stick to the script' enough to not get in trouble yet play instinctively enough to make plays in spite of it.
Minkah obviously stands out right now and I tell ya what that Levi Wallace is one to watch....I like what I'm seeing from him. Averett is a blanket. In the grand picture I really can't complain about much. CNS's methods work more times than not.
But the 1st and mainly the only time I got hot this week was a case of me jumping to conclusions. It was the previously mentioned AA play but on the replay he actually defended it about as good as humanly possible. The WR was just taller. So I quickly retracted my complaint to those around me.
But overall I still personally don't like the 'way they are taught'. It's too conservative in relation to how much talent we have. Everyone is fast enough to recover from taking a peak. It seems like the guys who play the best back there 'stick to the script' enough to not get in trouble yet play instinctively enough to make plays in spite of it.
Minkah obviously stands out right now and I tell ya what that Levi Wallace is one to watch....I like what I'm seeing from him. Averett is a blanket. In the grand picture I really can't complain about much. CNS's methods work more times than not.
If you can turn your head and stay in phase with a receiver do us all a favor and get your rear down to Tuscaloosa and walk on.
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This needs to become the automatic response to any unwarranted complaints going forward. I've got to figure how to get this pic to pop up on my phone on Saturday's when I say stupid things...LOL
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Agreed; please go out in your front yard run as hard as you can for 20 yds, then try to turn and look over your shoulder without slowing down, face plant.
I thought this thread was gonna be about our secondary. I was very impressed with Levi Wallace. He looked good, probably because he knew what to do and has grown into a man over his time at Bama.
If we don't have more injuries our defense will be great.
Hurts looked fine. No interceptions. Not enough time for several reads.
Again the secondary looked like a championship group, and that is what's at the top of this thread.
If we don't have more injuries our defense will be great.
Hurts looked fine. No interceptions. Not enough time for several reads.
Again the secondary looked like a championship group, and that is what's at the top of this thread.
Levi Wallace looked great and I'm surprised that his play didn't warrant him getting all/most of the 1st team reps in practice. This secondary is elite and probably the best in the country. Minkah, Averett and Harrison are all going to end up as 1st or 2nd round picks and I'd lean toward them all being 1st rounders. Good thing too because they are going to need to step up and probably cover for some inexperience with the injuries at LB.
This is a really helpful thread, unlike some of our usual complaints about the secondary.
To the point about how some of our highly-touted college DBs don't make NFL rosters....keep in mind that the NFL is all about need. Once you have a really great DB, you might need a backup, but once you have that backup - you don't need another one. You simply can't stockpile.
Imagine you have a clothing budget - and not only a budget but you can only have so many shirts, so many shoes, ties, etc. You might spend a lot on a suit and a pair of shoes, even two good pair of khakis - but once it's time for a pair of jeans, you cut corners and you find your ties on eBay. It's a silly analogy in some ways, but it also works on a lot of levels. Once you've locked in a good DB as a starter or as a role player at a discount - you hang on to them and let other things go. That's how Dre Kirkpatrick is a quality role player but not a starter, and it's how high dollar items end up at Marshall's.
To the point about how some of our highly-touted college DBs don't make NFL rosters....keep in mind that the NFL is all about need. Once you have a really great DB, you might need a backup, but once you have that backup - you don't need another one. You simply can't stockpile.
Imagine you have a clothing budget - and not only a budget but you can only have so many shirts, so many shoes, ties, etc. You might spend a lot on a suit and a pair of shoes, even two good pair of khakis - but once it's time for a pair of jeans, you cut corners and you find your ties on eBay. It's a silly analogy in some ways, but it also works on a lot of levels. Once you've locked in a good DB as a starter or as a role player at a discount - you hang on to them and let other things go. That's how Dre Kirkpatrick is a quality role player but not a starter, and it's how high dollar items end up at Marshall's.
Ha Ha, Jackson, Dre, Barron, Cyrus Jones, Collins, Humphrey, Eddie Jackson.... Yes, I know Barron is an LB Now....
That's 8 former DBs....plus Sunseri, Sylve and others are hanging around.
Are there many schools with more than 8 in the NFL?
Ohio State has 9 -- and they are DBU.....
If Dee had made it -- we'd be tied....
That's 8 former DBs....plus Sunseri, Sylve and others are hanging around.
Are there many schools with more than 8 in the NFL?
Ohio State has 9 -- and they are DBU.....
If Dee had made it -- we'd be tied....
Menzie should have made it, too, but fell through the cracks.
Arenas had a good couple of years.
NFL DBs go against the best QB's and receivers. Plus the rules favor passing.
All the talent in the world doesn't account for not understanding the defensive call so you leave someone uncovered. This is where our defensive backfield excels. They don't make as many mistakes in their coverage package than other teams. Some teams (college) play nothing but zone so the most athletic guys can get on the field.
QB's that can put the ball in the right spot with a 6'5 receiver is gonna win that battle almost every time. We played well against FSU. They pressured our QB also, and had an excellent defensive backfield but Jalen didn't throw an interception.
All the talent in the world doesn't account for not understanding the defensive call so you leave someone uncovered. This is where our defensive backfield excels. They don't make as many mistakes in their coverage package than other teams. Some teams (college) play nothing but zone so the most athletic guys can get on the field.
QB's that can put the ball in the right spot with a 6'5 receiver is gonna win that battle almost every time. We played well against FSU. They pressured our QB also, and had an excellent defensive backfield but Jalen didn't throw an interception.
yep - and although Dee had a rough start to year one, he started coming on really strong toward the end of that season. Then the injuries started piling up and kept him from being able to practice/continue development, and with the Achilles he likely lost a step. I think he makes it without the injuries...
Guys....our secondary played an absolutely wonderful game against Florida State!
I was probably happier than any game I've watched in the Saban era.
They were hawking the ball, they were fighting the receiver for the ball.
Yes, they got over matched a couple of times, but that's going to happen.
To me, That's much better than being in the face of the receiver, not finding the ball, and it flies by your left ear and straight into the receivers hands for a touchdown.
I'm not sure who was watching what...but I saw what I thought was a really great secondary last Saturday!
sip
I was probably happier than any game I've watched in the Saban era.
They were hawking the ball, they were fighting the receiver for the ball.
Yes, they got over matched a couple of times, but that's going to happen.
To me, That's much better than being in the face of the receiver, not finding the ball, and it flies by your left ear and straight into the receivers hands for a touchdown.
I'm not sure who was watching what...but I saw what I thought was a really great secondary last Saturday!
sip
Thank you for all the great responses and even the few snarky ones made me smile. I am an Alabama grad (Gilletes was almost my second home for 4 years) and I am not criticizing Bama; I'm trying to understand why we play the way we do on deep balls, which seems different than the way NFL DBs play deep balls. I wholeheartedly agree that Bama's DBs are superb tacklers, have elite talent, elite speed, play the short and mid range balls better than anyone Else on the college level, and are almost always are in position on deep balls; I wouldn't trade ours for anyone else's. I think my question is specific: why on deep balls, when our DBs are right there with the receivers, does it seem the opposing receiver wins the battles at least enough to make me grab my head and say "Oh no, not again?" It appears some believe that taller receivers naturally win the contest when the ball is well thrown. I don't believe height is the sole or even primary reason because there have been too many good short DBs that have made a living in the NFL covering taller guys; Darrell Green is a good example. I think the really good DBs in the NFL have an "it" type sense about them so that when the receivers turn their heads, their eyes get big, and their hands start to raise....NFL DBs also turn their head and get a hand up to at least knock the ball away. On deep balls (only deep balls), it seems our DBs try to get a hand in at the last moment rather than knock the ball away before it reaches the receiver (or intercept it). And yes I know, that's why the NFL DBs are in the NFL....but that goes back to an earlier point; we have had great/elite DBs throughout CNS tenure as evidenced by the # of folks we put in the NFL. RTR tonight
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