Game Thread: OFFICIAL POSTGAME THREAD: Bama vs. Fresno St...

WMack4Bama · Sep 11, 2017

JustNeedMe81 said:
Think Leatherwood and Willis get a look with the 1's this week? I agree with everything you said here, but I'm still iffy on Cotton. I'm worried about our OL pass protections. I really thought Fresno St was a perfect game to throw balls and get his feet wet. I'm hoping to see that this weekend. Throwing for 97 yards and 116 yards... I get the concept of "Take what defense gives you" but if Clemson's Kelly Bryant can throw 50/50 balls, why can't Hurts do the same? I'm patient and I believe he will be fine.

All about philosophy. Dabo played WR so naturally he'll believe in his WRs to go up & get the 50/50 balls. Nick, played QB, and coached/coaches DBs, so he's always gonna want to take what the defense gives us, not turn the ball over, and win with defense & special teams if need be.

You may see some deep ball attempts one on one on the outside when there are no safeties over the top or only one safety, but traditionally, we're not an offense that likes to take many risks. We like to take what thy give us. A quasi-conservative approach. We sometimes say we don't like it, but whenever we get away from it, everyone from players playing (think Fluker in Atlanta in '12), former players, and fans all kick & scream to go back to what's familiar

CrimsonProf · Sep 11, 2017

Whatever happens with 77/74, I'm worried someone's Daddy is going to talk about it on Twitter.

My biggest issue so far is leadership - who is in charge of this team? We knew last year that the team belonged to the offices of Anderson, Allen and Foster, with an assist from Mr. Stewart. Who are the leaders in his group? It's hard to figure that out right now and until that happens, I'll be worried we drop one to a team that wants it more than we do.

WMack4Bama · Sep 11, 2017

CrimsonProf said:
Whatever happens with 77/74, I'm worried someone's Daddy is going to talk about it on Twitter.

My biggest issue so far is leadership - who is in charge of this team? We knew last year that the team belonged to the offices of Anderson, Allen and Foster, with an assist from Mr. Stewart. Who are the leaders in his group? It's hard to figure that out right now and until that happens, I'll be worried we drop one to a team that wants it more than we do.

Yes to both paragraphs, especially the first one

CrimsonProf · Sep 11, 2017

WMack4Bama said:
Yes to both paragraphs, especially the first one

I could say a bit more on that but best to keep that powder dry.

I know SDH is a leader but maybe too nice a guy. If Harrison could step up and demand something of his defense, we might be on the way. Offense needs it, too.

Bamabuzzard · Sep 11, 2017

WMack4Bama said:
*All about philosophy. Dabo played WR so naturally he'll believe in his WRs to go up & get the 50/50 balls. Nick, played QB, and coached/coaches DBs, so he's always gonna want to take what the defense gives us, not turn the ball over, and win with defense & special teams if need be.

You may see some deep ball attempts one on one on the outside when there are no safeties over the top or only one safety, but traditionally, we're not an offense that likes to take many risks. We like to take what thy give us. A quasi-conservative approach. We sometimes say we don't like it, but whenever we get away from it, everyone from players playing (think Fluker in Atlanta in '12), former players, and fans all kick & scream to go back to what's familiar

*I would say over 50% of Clemson's passing game is based on jump balls. They're good at it to.

WMack4Bama · Sep 11, 2017

Bamabuzzard said:
*I would say over 50% of Clemson's passing game is based on jump balls. They're good at it to.

And about 40% more is to 13 on 3rd & short to medium releasing from the slot on an underneath route

Bamabuzzard · Sep 11, 2017

WMack4Bama said:
And about 40% more is to 13 on 3rd & short to medium releasing from the slot on an underneath route

And 50% of that 40% is made possible by pick plays.

BamaMoon · Sep 11, 2017

Bamabuzzard said:
*I would say over 50% of Clemson's passing game is based on jump balls. They're good at it to.

Really makes me wonder about the way CNS teaches his defensive back to play the players eyes and not turn and look for the ball.

I figure more 50/50 balls will be thrown on us because our guys don't turn and find the ball. Not questioning CNS, but I really wonder if this is something that might force a change.

BamaInBham · Sep 11, 2017

BamaMoon said:
Really makes me wonder about the way CNS teaches his defensive back to play the players eyes and not turn and look for the ball.

I figure more 50/50 balls will be thrown on us because our guys don't turn and find the ball. Not questioning CNS, but I really wonder if this is something that might force a change.

Saban does teach the DBs to turn and look for the ball, but only in response to receiver tell-tale signs. I've heard him refer to this at least twice, usually in response to a caller's question. CNS also complained that the DBs needed to do a better job of identifying those signs. What some fans don't understand is that you can't just guess and turn around, that is asking for disaster. But it does "seem" that Bama's DBs err on the side of caution, being sure that if it's caught they will make the tackle. Probably, because that's what their coaches emphasize.

While I believe it is possible that Bama's DBs don't perform as well on jump-balls, I believe that other teams try it more often out of desperation and reputation. I also believe that WRs sell-out to make a play against Bama more than against other teams - there have been some amazing catches over the years. And Bama's DBs do turn around occasionally.

This is a common refrain that is addressed every year.

JDCrimson · Sep 11, 2017

CrimsonProf said:
I could say a bit more on that but best to keep that powder dry.

I know SDH is a leader but maybe too nice a guy. If Harrison could step up and demand something of his defense, we might be on the way. Offense needs it, too.

This team is immensely talented but obviously inexperienced. I think Ronnie and Minkah are the primary alpha dogs on defense this year. Don't really know yet for the offense.

I think we are playing way too conservative on offense not playing physical enough. It appears we are still thinking too much on that side of the ball.

As for alignment, our starting WR rotation looks to be Ridley, Sims, and Foster with Foster playing weakside WR which Hurts rarely gets that far through his reads. It would seem to me our passing game might be more effective if we lined up Foster in the slot along with Ridley to prevent a bracketing of Ridley that we are sure to see later on.

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Saban4Ever · Sep 12, 2017

I do have some worries about our offense when we get to the more difficult games v good defenses such as LSU, Auburn, etc. Even Vandy will have a decent defense I think.

I wonder how much control Brian Daboll really has. Surely he has a better, more aggressive, offensive scheme planned for SEC. I have read some great ideas on here about what to do for our offense, so I am sure they realize what needs to be done since they are the actual coaches. I trust Saban but I do get frustrated like others do watching the games sometimes.

JBama_in_PCOLA · Sep 12, 2017

Didn't get to finish this game with you guys. Roll Tide!

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CrimsonProf · Sep 12, 2017

BamaInBham said:
Saban does teach the DBs to turn and look for the ball, but only in response to receiver tell-tale signs. I've heard him refer to this at least twice, usually in response to a caller's question. CNS also complained that the DBs needed to do a better job of identifying those signs. What some fans don't understand is that you can't just guess and turn around, that is asking for disaster. But it does "seem" that Bama's DBs err on the side of caution, being sure that if it's caught they will make the tackle. Probably, because that's what their coaches emphasize.

While I believe it is possible that Bama's DBs don't perform as well on jump-balls, I believe that other teams try it more often out of desperation and reputation. I also believe that WRs sell-out to make a play against Bama more than against other teams - there have been some amazing catches over the years. And Bama's DBs do turn around occasionally.

This is a common refrain that is addressed every year.

This. I think there's a weird, Outliers-Malcolm Gladwellish thing going on here.

RollTide_HTTR · Sep 12, 2017

BamaMoon said:
Really makes me wonder about the way CNS teaches his defensive back to play the players eyes and not turn and look for the ball.

I figure more 50/50 balls will be thrown on us because our guys don't turn and find the ball. Not questioning CNS, but I really wonder if this is something that might force a change.

I just don't but that the issue is Saban's coaching. He's too smart and competitive to let something like that be what beats him. I think it's more likely that turning your head at the right time is just a really hard skill to learn as most young DBs struggle with it. I will say Averett might be the best at locating the ball I have seen under Saban in a while though. Minkah too.

TIDE-HSV · Sep 13, 2017

RollTide_HTTR said:
I just don't but that the issue is Saban's coaching. He's too smart and competitive to let something like that be what beats him. I think it's more likely that turning your head at the right time is just a really hard skill to learn as most young DBs struggle with it. I will say Averett might be the best at locating the ball I have seen under Saban in a while though. Minkah too.

I've posted on this before, but I'll try one more time. I heartily recommend Phil Savage's book, where CNS' DB philosophy is discussed in detail. Basically, explaining the "in phase" and "out of phase" terminology, only if you are running stride for stride with the receiver and have your shoulders squared with his, are you not beaten, or "in phase." In that situation, you can turn, because you have time to do it. If you are not, then you are "out of phase" which pretty much means you are, for the moment, beaten. His philosophy is that, to turn at that point, you lose a half step, at least, and hand an easy reception, if not a TD to the receiver. In that case, your better play is not to turn at all, since you have a better chance at the ball by watching the receiver's eyes and hands. Your opinion may differ, but remember you're differing with the man considered, both in the pros and NCAA, as the best DB coach in the business. A related point, which I see pop up in game threads, is that there is no rule against "face-guarding" in the NCAA, and therefore no obligation to turn around and play the ball. It has absolutely no bearing on a PI call. So long as there is no premature contact, there will be no PI call, unlike the NFL rule...

CrimsonProf · Sep 13, 2017

TIDE-HSV said:
I've posted on this before, but I'll try one more time. I heartily recommend Phil Savage's book, where CNS' DB philosophy is discussed in detail. Basically, explaining the "in phase" and "out of phase" terminology, only if you are running stride for stride with the receiver and have your shoulders squared with his, are you not beaten, or "in phase." In that situation, you can turn, because you have time to do it. If you are not, then you are "out of phase" which pretty much means you are, for the moment, beaten. His philosophy is that, to turn at that point, you lose a half step, at least, and hand an easy reception, if not a TD to the receiver. In that case, your better play is not to turn at all, since you have a better chance at the ball by watching the receiver's eyes and hands. Your opinion may differ, but remember you're differing with the man considered, both in the pros and NCAA, as the best DB coach in the business. A related point, which I see pop up in game threads, is that there is no rule against "face-guarding" in the NCAA, and therefore no obligation to turn around and play the ball. It has absolutely no bearing on a PI call. So long as there is no premature contact, there will be no PI call, unlike the NFL rule...

Don't disagree with any of this, but there is mass confusion on the rule at the college level. How many times in recent years have we been hit with DPI and an announcer notes that our guy didn't turn his head, even though there wasn't premature contact?

And while CNS is rightly considered the best DB coach around, there has been increased chatter in NFL circles about our guys having to relearn some things once they make it into the league.

BamaMoon · Sep 13, 2017

CrimsonProf said:
Don't disagree with any of this, but there is mass confusion on the rule at the college level. How many times in recent years have we been hit with DPI and an announcer notes that our guy didn't turn his head, even though there wasn't premature contact?

And while CNS is rightly considered the best DB coach around, there has been increased chatter in NFL circles about our guys having to relearn some things once they make it into the league.

I believe I heard Kirk Herbstreit basically make that very observation in a recent game...something like "If he would have turned his head they may not have called the PI."

I appreciate Earle's explanation above too, but it sounds like this is a case of there being a "letter of the law" rule and then a "spirit of the law" interpretation.

AlexanderFan · Sep 13, 2017

CrimsonProf said:
Don't disagree with any of this, but there is mass confusion on the rule at the college level. How many times in recent years have we been hit with DPI and an announcer notes that our guy didn't turn his head, even though there wasn't premature contact?

And while CNS is rightly considered the best DB coach around, there has been increased chatter in NFL circles about our guys having to relearn some things once they make it into the league.

Can you name a college coach whose defensive backs don't have to learn how to play db in the NFL?

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RollTide_HTTR · Sep 13, 2017

TIDE-HSV said:
I've posted on this before, but I'll try one more time. I heartily recommend Phil Savage's book, where CNS' DB philosophy is discussed in detail. Basically, explaining the "in phase" and "out of phase" terminology, only if you are running stride for stride with the receiver and have your shoulders squared with his, are you not beaten, or "in phase." In that situation, you can turn, because you have time to do it. If you are not, then you are "out of phase" which pretty much means you are, for the moment, beaten. His philosophy is that, to turn at that point, you lose a half step, at least, and hand an easy reception, if not a TD to the receiver. In that case, your better play is not to turn at all, since you have a better chance at the ball by watching the receiver's eyes and hands. Your opinion may differ, but remember you're differing with the man considered, both in the pros and NCAA, as the best DB coach in the business. A related point, which I see pop up in game threads, is that there is no rule against "face-guarding" in the NCAA, and therefore no obligation to turn around and play the ball. It has absolutely no bearing on a PI call. So long as there is no premature contact, there will be no PI call, unlike the NFL rule...

I haven't read the book but I've read about this before. I just meant that it seems more likely that the strategy isn't the issue just that turning and locating the ball is a very hard skill to learn or perfect for young CBs.

Also, does the NFL have a face guarding rule? I thought that was only a thing in High School football.

TIDE-HSV · Sep 13, 2017

RollTide_HTTR said:
I haven't read the book but I've read about this before. I just meant that it seems more likely that the strategy isn't the issue just that turning and locating the ball is a very hard skill to learn or perfect for young CBs.

Also, does the NFL have a face guarding rule? I thought that was only a thing in High School football.

There's not a rule per se, but there is a difference in the way contact is regarded. You can get away with incidental contact in college. There is a hard rule in HS. I've failed in getting across my, or, rather, Saban's point. It's not that locating the ball is a separate skill to learn. The point is that the locating is only a part of the entire process, starting at the LOS. How to do his shuttle step, match the receiver's cuts and leads to being in or out of phase when the ball is in the air. At that point, turning to locate the ball, if you're out of phase, is futile and will lead to an easy completion, as you lose your half step and fall even further out of phase. So, it's not a matter of locating the ball. They teach them all that. The really tough lesson for the DBs (and apparently very hard for some fans to accept) is when to try to locate and when not to try. In at least nine out of ten cases, when the DB doesn't try to turn and locate, it's not because it's difficult to learn, it's because he's been taught not to turn and locate in that situation. Try watching some defended passes with this in mind...

Game Thread: OFFICIAL POSTGAME THREAD: Bama vs. Fresno St...

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