UAB attendance back to normal

KrAzY3

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Heh, prepare for reading. I think PitMaster set up the Alabama fan's perspective fairly well. Towards the end he touched on the reason I have such an axe to grind with UAB. There is some animosity, but it goes beyond that. UAB signifies what is wrong with college football in general. He put together a post that's well worth reading...

Anyway, to set things up, I'd point to right after Alabama's championship win in 2009. They'd just finished one of the toughest schedules in history. They'd had the greatest BCS season in history. Yet, some ESPN announcer has the gall to ask about Boise State. Alabama's SoS was 2, Boise State's was 96. They were basically playing in a lower division. Yet, for a few years we still had to hear about Boise State and they were occasionally part of the championship discussion. This was never warranted though, this was always a low SoS, cupcake schedule that had one or two reasonable tests at most and the rest was utter drivel.

How did it come to that though? How could a top ten team play a 96 SoS in a division that only had about 100 teams in the relatively recent past? The answer is lowering the bar, the 85 scholarship limit. The limit was 95 for a while, but during the 90s the 85 limit came into place, and with it quite a few programs either sprang into existence (like UAB), or moved up. It a significant sign from the NCAA that they were going to hold the big boys back and welcome in the little guys, deserving or not. Consider what this move did though, you take 10 scholarships from 100 programs (it was less since not all programs were using the max), and you could have up to 1,000 D1 scholarship quality players available. That's enough for around 12 more programs to spring into existence and that's exactly what happened.

Decades earlier, a second division has been created. I-AA, and this served a valid purpose, to let those lower level programs play without mucking things up. The scholarship limit move to 85 signaled a reversal (it's not even I-AA anymore, it's FCS), the NCAA hasn't even enforced attendance requirements. If you want to move up to the FBS, just do it, they've lowered the bar as far as they can, they've ignored their own rules, come one come all!

The problem is the FBS still requires a significant investment. What motivates a team to move up? Well, in the state of Alabama it's pretty much jealousy and delusional ambition. The UAB program was built in the idea that they could be important to, a delusion at best. It wasn't just UAB though, South Alabama football was born of the same wasteful, delusional ambition. They both cry about the same things, they need better stadiums, they occasionally propose spending tens of millions of other people's money to "fix" that problem. The simple fact though is that people care much more about Alabama, Auburn, and the SEC. There's not even history to prop those guys up, they're supported by a relatively small group of power hungry people, often spending other people's money to have their own football program.

Long before the report about UAB football losing millions, I was saying they were losing millions on this very forum. It was obvious, look at the attendance, look at where that attendance is coming from, and look at the money they are spending. It was obviously not profitable. They're wasting taxpayer dollars so they can have a football program, and that ain't right. It's not right that South Alabama is doing it either. And at PitMaster alluded to, they're not the only ones. I'm not one of those guys calling for only 60 programs in the FBS, but there darn sure shouldn't be more than around 100! You can clean things up, save taxpayer dollars, stop trying to undermine the best programs, all at once.

UAB could have been one of many responsible choices. Let football go, move on, stop trying to be something you can't be, and stop wasting our money to do it. Now though? They're an insult, they're an affront, they're living out an extravagant delusion that we're made to pay for.
 
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B1GTide

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Apr 13, 2012
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Thanks to everyone for explaining the history here. I now at least have the beginning of an understanding and will just keep my nose out of these threads. It certainly seems that UAB deserves the animosity that they are receiving.
 

cbi1972

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Decades earlier, a second division has been created. D2, and this served a valid purpose, to let those lower level programs play without mucking things up. The scholarship limit move to 85 signaled a reversal (it's not even D2 anymore, it's FCS), the NCAA hasn't even enforced attendance requirements. If you want to move up to the FBS, just do it, they've lowered the bar as far as they can, they've ignored their own rules, come one come all!
This isn't quite right. Division I-AA became FCS.

Division II is still around, and the University of North Alabama is competitive in it.
 

uaintn

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Poor B1G. More than you ever wanted to know, I am sure. Relatively speaking, Alabama is a small state (population-wise) with a small tax base (I won't even get into the property tax debate here -- it's for non-sports). However, athletics, football in particular, are symbols and important ones.

UAB arose as a commuter campus for the Birmingham metro area. Over time, ambitious administrators there with the full support of Birmingham government made no bones about the fact that they wanted to be a co-equal university to what they derisively referred to as UAT (I think Bartow started that, too). Pretty rapidly they expanded degree programs, got funding to build dorms, and started extracurricular programs like basketball. Why should a commuter campus want to build dorms on urban property you ask? Good question. The rise of football and basketball was seen by many as a way to attract students from other schools, including the one just a single county over. Many Auburn supporters liked the internecine warfare on the Board of Trust, viewing the Blazers as a school that would take much more from the Capstone (money, talent, prestige) than it would from their land grant mission. This, too, was probably valid reasoning.

Blazer football became a symbol for them that they were, indeed, on a path to eclipse the main campus. Birmingham officials were ga-ga with visions of 100,000 people showing up a Legion Field, or a brand new domed stadium paid for Alabama tax payers (no, I'm not kidding) and spending money like crazy. It was delusional, of course, as are many things in Jefferson County government (see, e.g indictments, bankruptcies, etc.) There were insistent calls that Alabama "schedule" UAB, which offered everything for UAB and nothing for the Capstone.

UAB now claims to have over 19,000 students, including 11,000 undergrads. A few years ago it expanded to include a college of arts and sciences. It may be in striking distance of Auburn, which has about 27,000 students, in the race to be the second largest college in the state.

But, B1G, Alabama (the state) just does not have the money to justify having two colleges with fairly identical programs in adjacent counties. It certainly doesn't have the money to flush $15-$20 million every year into Blazer football. If they want to have a team, then I think they should. A top division team when they have to pull all sorts of accounting foolishness to say they average 15,000 a game? No way.

Bottom line, football is symbolic in Alabama. With UAB, it symbolizes all the wrong things.
 

CoolBreeze

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40% of their students are Bama fans, 30% are Barn fans; the other 30% are futbol fans
I trend more on the forgiving side of this argument under the heading of "bygones." I like Bill Clark but, frankly, the Blazers will never be at the level they think they should be and their attendance numbers are proof positive that reviving a program back from the dead will not change anything. What they do have, however, is a very competitive D1 Men's Soccer program that has actually cracked the top 25 in recent years. They would be better served concentrating on this and other sports that don't compete with fan's college football dollars. They are silly to think that they can.
 

RT27

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Still dont understand why this program was brought back and all the outrage from certain individual city officials and alumni over its shutdown, which was the most prudent move by the university imo. Other than that handful of people there simply is no demand for FBS football at UAB.
Giver it a few years, they will close it down again. UAB has no draw.
 

RTR91

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Nov 23, 2007
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Poor B1G. More than you ever wanted to know, I am sure. Relatively speaking, Alabama is a small state (population-wise) with a small tax base (I won't even get into the property tax debate here -- it's for non-sports). However, athletics, football in particular, are symbols and important ones.

UAB arose as a commuter campus for the Birmingham metro area. Over time, ambitious administrators there with the full support of Birmingham government made no bones about the fact that they wanted to be a co-equal university to what they derisively referred to as UAT (I think Bartow started that, too). Pretty rapidly they expanded degree programs, got funding to build dorms, and started extracurricular programs like basketball. Why should a commuter campus want to build dorms on urban property you ask? Good question. The rise of football and basketball was seen by many as a way to attract students from other schools, including the one just a single county over. Many Auburn supporters liked the internecine warfare on the Board of Trust, viewing the Blazers as a school that would take much more from the Capstone (money, talent, prestige) than it would from their land grant mission. This, too, was probably valid reasoning.

Blazer football became a symbol for them that they were, indeed, on a path to eclipse the main campus. Birmingham officials were ga-ga with visions of 100,000 people showing up a Legion Field, or a brand new domed stadium paid for Alabama tax payers (no, I'm not kidding) and spending money like crazy. It was delusional, of course, as are many things in Jefferson County government (see, e.g indictments, bankruptcies, etc.) There were insistent calls that Alabama "schedule" UAB, which offered everything for UAB and nothing for the Capstone.

UAB now claims to have over 19,000 students, including 11,000 undergrads. A few years ago it expanded to include a college of arts and sciences. It may be in striking distance of Auburn, which has about 27,000 students, in the race to be the second largest college in the state.

But, B1G, Alabama (the state) just does not have the money to justify having two colleges with fairly identical programs in adjacent counties. It certainly doesn't have the money to flush $15-$20 million every year into Blazer football. If they want to have a team, then I think they should. A top division team when they have to pull all sorts of accounting foolishness to say they average 15,000 a game? No way.

Bottom line, football is symbolic in Alabama. With UAB, it symbolizes all the wrong things.
State population is pretty big for this discussion.

Still had a document on my computer with the number of D1 (FBS and FCS) schools in each state with their respective population from the 2010 census. Alabama is tied with Virginia for eleventh most D1 programs with 9. We rank 42nd when looking at the citizens to D1 school ratio. So we have 539,886.56 citizens per one D1 program. Meanwhile, Missouri has over 2,000,000 citizens per D1 program.

Without getting too NS, the state is too poor to support nine D1 teams (Samford is the only private school in the bunch).

Ray Watts and the BOT made a realistic decision. One other schools have made since UAB's was announced. The uproar because of the connection to UA is what swung the momentum.
 

Rama Jama

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When everyone was debating this issue, I said there would be a bump in attendance for the 1st few games and then it would go back to where it was before. This is a financial black hole that can't be filled. UAB now says they need a new stadium to get people to show up. Many pointed to the Birmingham Baron's as an example of how they could thrive if given the chance, but this is comparing apples to oranges. The " if you build it they will come" mentality is wrong. Winning games at the FBS division is what draws fans to the games. Unless they win, it will be almost impossible for them to be perceived as anything but a 2nd rate program. Do they really think if Cark stars to win they can keep him in Birmingham?

I have no problems with them playing at lower level which is where they should be.
 

4Q Basket Case

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I live in Birmingham, and my real question is how many of the attendees bought their tickets from the UAB athletic department, at face?

Lots of companies around town buy tickets, often at a discount, and distribute them to employees as a perk, at no charge. A lot of times, the HR departments can't even give them away.

Admittedly, Legion Field is an abomination. UAB should build a 20-30,000 seat stadium on campus. The stadium should be designed with expansion in mind. If attendance justifies, they can always add on. If not (as I expect will be the case), they haven't flushed a ton of money.

But this is Birmingham, and common sense isn't very common.
 

Tide1986

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I live in Birmingham, and my real question is how many of the attendees bought their tickets from the UAB athletic department, at face?

Lots of companies around town buy tickets, often at a discount, and distribute them to employees as a perk, at no charge. A lot of times, the HR departments can't even give them away.

Admittedly, Legion Field is an abomination. UAB should build a 20-30,000 seat stadium on campus. The stadium should be designed with expansion in mind. If attendance justifies, they can always add on. If not (as I expect will be the case), they haven't flushed a ton of money.

But this is Birmingham, and common sense isn't very common.
They could always play their games at Heardmont Park in Shelby County. It'd help Oak Mountain High School athletics pay off the original stadium debt from when the school first opened in 1999. That debt is a drain on its football program. And of course UAB could finally fill a stadium. I believe the home stands seat about 2,500. Plus the OM Band could generate additional funds through concessions. Sounds like a win-win to me.
 
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CB4

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I too was one of those UAB grads (two degrees from there) that grew up an Alabama fan. My loyalty has and will always be to Alabama.

However like PitMaster I supported the basketball program. Especially late starting week night games when a trip to BJCC was much easier that a trip down 20/59 and back. I was there for the very first game against Nebraska.

And the majority of the support was coming from Alabama fans. And when Bartow pulled his little stunt, he slit the throat of his basketball team and any chance for a future football program. From that point on I never attended another UAB basketball game. And I wasn't the only one. Go back and look at the basketball attendance since the early 1990's.
 

crimsonaudio

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I honestly don't know much about the politics and history of the situation as my total time living in Alabama was while I was attending school at UA (btw, thanks, Pitmaster, for the informative post). That said, I don't really care - that's not a motivational factor for me either way - I simply believe FBS football should be restricted to real football programs - the type that can regularly fill a 50k seat stadium (give or take). All these pretend FBS schools who can barely get 20k or less need to be forced bak into FCS. It's ridiculous that UAB (for example) is in the same division as Auburn, much less Alabama.

Screw schools like East Popcorn State, why should real football schools have to play by rules that allow the crappy little programs tone 'competitive'?
 

81usaf92

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Apr 26, 2008
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Probably the best compromise is to:

1: keep the Power 5 intact and exempt from the following below.
2: regionally divide up all of the non power 5 teams
3: have 3 levels of football. D1,D2, D3
4: Use the England soccer method of deciding who is where on a 4 year basis. Basically great performance gets you to the higher levels and bad performance gets you placed in lower leagues.
5: come up with a clear cut method of deciding who moves up and down
6: power 5 teams cannot schedule non D1 teams.

Using this method eliminates a lot of the stupid becoming FBS status teams, and effectively ends the argument of FBS teams scheduling FCS teams. It also gives teams a chance to grow and be able to compete with teams of equal status.
 

deliveryman35

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Having grown up in Birmingham in the 1970s, and having family in that area going back over 100 years, I will give you my perspective. Bear in mind that UAB is an urban campus, a largely commuter school, and most local students already were Alabama or Auburn fans, and identified much more closely with those campuses. UAB was where they went to school, but athletically, their heart lay in Tuscaloosa or Auburn. You just cannot get the "warm fuzzies" about a campus in a concrete jungle like you can a campus located in Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Baton Rouge, etc.

UAB decided in the mid 1970s to start a Division 1 Basketball program, commencing in 1978. They scored a huge coup in luring Gene Bartow as Head Coach, who was the successor to John Wooden at UCLA. I believe Bartow envisioned being able to create a program like Memphis, one of his former coaching stops. They actually had a contest in local media to create the team nickname, which obviously became the Blazers (in large part, I think, due to the fact the Portland Trail BLAZERS had just won the NBA Championship). There was actually excitement and interest within the local community, and excitement about Basketball as a sport was at that time more prevalent than today.

And the program started with a bang. Good product, good crowds, even filling the 17, 654 seats of the Birmingham-Jefferson Civic Center. People like me were devout Alabama or Auburn folks, but still bought tickets and went to cheer the Blazers. All was well within the kingdom, and the subjects content.

But then, quickly, in the mid 1980s things began to sour a bit. There was a lot of TOP talent in Alabama, especially in the Birmingham area - and some intense recruiting battles for that talent occurred between Bama and the Blazers. Head Coaches Wimp Sanderson and of Alabama and Bartow began developing an enmity that would only increase over time. When UAB lost some of those recruiting battles, Bartow began contacting the ncaa, quietly, pointing fingers at UA for recruiting improprieties.

UAB began seeing the erosion of the fanbase - Alabama guy especially began to look less and less favorably at UAB as time passed. I can testify - I was one that used to enjoy attending UAB games, but by the mid 80s had far less inclination to spend my time and money at the BJCC.

The dominoes began to topple towards a further and crippling rift between Tuscaloosa and Birmingham in 1989, albeit in an innocuous fashion, when UAB announced the creation of a club football team. Here is a link to a good history of UAB origins, beginning on page 12.

https://www.uab.edu/cas/history/images/Documents/VHS/Vulcan_Historical_Review_V17_2013.pdf


Note that Pat Dye was in favor, and Bill Curry, Head Coach at Alabama, was not. In fact, I believe there was a belief at auburn, especially within power circles, that the rise of UAB football would only hamper Alabama. As such, no wonder Auburn was supportive - it was largely self-serving.

If you are able, remember the sports climate in the state at that time. Alabama was transitioning, and not very well, to like after Coach Bryant. Auburn was experiencing success, feeling their oats, and had won the battle over being able to host Alabama in Auburn. Alabama had put in the west upper deck to Bryant-Denny Stadium in 1988, and there were plans to further expand with an eye on eventually playing all games in Tuscaloosa. This possibility/eventuality was not lost on even the dim-witted, myopic Birmingham leadership. Eric Ramsey and Gene Jelks were on the horizon, as well as the Antonio Langham mess, and both Alabama and Auburn would experience severe sanctions within a 5 year period. The Wimp Sanderson and Nancy Watts saga was imminent.

It was a very unsettled time for State sports, especially for the University of Alabama.
So, UAB club football arrives in 1989, - and the fast track begins. In 1991, UAB announces they are moving upwards into Division III football, with DR. Jim Hilyer as Head Coach. Due to an NCAA ruling that Universities could not have athletics programs competing at multi-divisional levels, in 1993 UAB was "forced" to move to a Division 1-AA status. In 1994, UAB played Kansas, their first ever game against a D-1 program, and Hilyer resigned after the season, with Watson Brown being named Head Coach.

UAB applies for, and received, clearance in 1995 to move into D-1 football, and began competing at that level in 1996. Then, near the end of that same year, C-USA Commissioner Mike Slive (hmm) announced UAB would be admitted as a football playing member in 1999.

Think about all that for a moment. In the space of six - SIX - years, UAB started a club football squad and transitioned into full Division 1 status. This at a commuter campus, without a solid "UAB First" fanbase to count on, and with no time to create one. This was a shotgun wedding of UAB and D-1 Football, and came about quicker than an Elizabeth Taylor whirlwind romance/marriage.

Now, back to the Bartow factor. Coach Bartow was not idle during all this - he would coach UAB Basketball till 1996, and serve as AD till 2000. He was of course highly involved in the creation and transition of UAB Football. But that was not all, as came out in 1993 in the LA Times, regarding a letter Bartow wrote to David Berst, NCAA enforcement director, back to 1991. The focus in LA was a perceived fear Bartow had of UCLA Super Booster Sam Gilbert, an hombre some thought had "mafia ties" - but this resonated with folks in Alabama...



http://articles.latimes.com/1993-08-04/sports/sp-20220_1_sam-gilbert

However, Bartow went further, had he not, damage would have been mitigated to a degree. But Bartow committed the cardinal sin where the University of Alabama was concerned - he slandered the name of Coach Bryant...

From The New York Times...


http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/05/s...w-accused-alabama-in-1991-letter.html?mcubz=0

Interesting that we now have both the LA Times and New York Times, involved at least to some degree, in the escalating Tusclaoosa-Birmingham feud. Big City coming to the country, in a way.
:biggrin2:

So Bartow sends this letter in 1991, it gets, for some reason, leaked to an LA Times reporter in 93 who publishes a story about it on August 4th, 1993. The very NEXT DAY Bartow issued an apology...



http://articles.latimes.com/1993-08-05/sports/sp-20797_1_gene-bartow

A lot of Alabama fans saw the situation as this - Bartow attacked THE MAN, The Legend, Coach Bryant, in his letter to Berst and the NCAA. He also did this years AFTER Coach Bryant's death, and would never have dared confront Bryant himself. Bartow is now in the process of fast-tracking the UAB football venture, with the full support and endorsement of Auburn officials.

Alabama fans were DONE with supporting UAB athletics, in anything, at this point.

Time marches on, UAB wins some football games, loses more, and plays to paltry crowd in a declining venue on Graymont Avenue. The strange union of UAB officials, a few boosters, and City of Birmingham officials (
not much chance of dirty dealings and self-serving decisions here) keeps UAB Football afloat, partly because the City buys some 5000 tickets per year that will count as "attendance" when NCAA crowd requirements are analyzed. But the program bleeds money, cannot develop a dedicated fanbase, especially in a blossoming technological age where entertainment options are increasing by the boatloads.

All the while, UAB folks are constantly whining about a perceived lack of fair treatment from The University of Alabama Board of Trustees. They cannot draw consistently fair crowds to the games - yet espouse the notion that "If we can just have someone build us a new, state of the art, 40,000 or so seat stadium, fans will suddenly stream in." IE, they are BEGGING for investments, with no history to convince anyone with sense that such an investment would be a good idea. As regards the stadium, UAB tried to organize a big time rally, to meet on Campus and bus to Tuscaloosa to demonstrate outside a UA BOT meeting. These "UAB Freedom Riders" were gonna save the Blazer day.

They wanted thousands to ride - they took 2 buses with empty seats.

In 2014, UAB President Ray Watts decided to take a good look at UAB Athletics, and plot the best course of future direction. UAB employed outside resources, including CarrSports Consulting, and came to teh conclusion that it would be in the best interest of UAB to drop football. It was determined that to be "competitive" UAB would have to increase the football budget by 49 million, and that money would be better spent elsewhere.

“In order to invest at least another $49 million, UAB would have to redirect funds away from other critical areas of importance, like education, research, patient care and student services, which are core to UAB’s mission, and our priority athletic programs would suffer competitively.” ― President Ray L. Watts
https://www.uab.edu/athleticsplan/message/announcement-dec-2014

A look at UAB budgets illuminates a program that cannot pay for itself. From an al.com 2014 article on the budget...



http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/12/how_broke_is_uabs_athletics_de.html



Now, there are many programs like UAB around the country, who need subsidy cash. The UAB leadership made a wise and prudent decision to drop Football, which others should also consider. But thanks to a bunch of bleeding hearts and a story that the national media turned into an "injustice" for a brief minute, UAB caved in and decided to bring the money pit of UAB football back to life. The whiners, "outraged" media types et al have LONG ago moved on to other issues to protest.

But we in Alabama are still here, forced to financially prop up a Potemkin Village of a program.

Meanwhile, what about the other athletic and academic programs that WERE axed to create the football farse? And the Programs that now will NOT benefit from funds that would have been diverted their way after euthanizing the farse? All for the sake of the pipe dream?

As an Alabama guy who once, long ago, also supported UAB - To Hell with UAB Athletics :BigA::BigA::BigA:

Thanks for all of that insight. I was not aware of the mike slive connection.
 

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