Ken Burns' "Vietnam War" series on PBS

GrayTide

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The series concluded tonight with the fall of Saigon and the collapse of the South Vietnam government. This was an outstanding Ken Burns documentary and well worth seeing even if you were not around when any of this happened.

It is proof that our country's leaders were deceptive and could not have cared less whether 58,000 Americans lost there lives, not to mention the estimated 3 million Vietnamese, north and south who perished. And to think that 42 years later we still have not learned our lesson. The people, then and now running our government, deserve a special place in hell.
 

day-day

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I always worry when watching series like this if there is any bias or an agenda and if anything is presented out of context. This Ken Burns series had to be long just to try to capture all that was going on politically, socially and militarily. I have not watched the final show yet.

The shift in the morale and attitudes of the American fighting force as this war went along and the draft process changed was presented very well. Also, the interviews with the North and South Vietnamese citizens and former soldiers put this series over the top.

The whole situation was so complex. I don't know if there was ever a proper time for the US to be very involved and if so, what the proper depth and actions should have been.

Nixon was absolutely masterful with his speeches.
 

crimsonaudio

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I've recorded them all, still haven't found the time (or mustered the courage) to watch them. I will. My studies of Vietnam are the sole reason as to why I will never allow the draft to force my kids into service. I've been blessed financially to the point that I can make them 'disappear' if need be, and I will never sacrifice my children for a 'cause' like Vietnam...
 

gtowntide

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I've recorded them all, still haven't found the time (or mustered the courage) to watch them. I will. My studies of Vietnam are the sole reason as to why I will never allow the draft to force my kids into service. I've been blessed financially to the point that I can make them 'disappear' if need be, and I will never sacrifice my children for a 'cause' like Vietnam...
I served there and I totally salute you for this stance. No one needs to die needlessly so politicians can pat themselves on the back and sell the country that we're winning when they knew we weren't.
 
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GrayTide

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I served there and I totally salute you for this stance. No one needs to die needlessly so politicians can pat themselves on the back and sell the country that we're winning when they knew we weren't.
While I did not serve in Vietnam I was on active duty in the Navy from 1970-1972. I lost a couple of childhood friends in Vietnam and I often think how senseless their sacrifice was and it makes me sick. I remember my first visit to the "Wall" and seeing their names, it was an emotional and sobering experience to say the least. History has a unique way of repeating itself and the lessons our leaders did not learn from Vietnam are now being repeated in Iraq and Afghanistan. SMH.
 

Bamaro

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While I did not serve in Vietnam I was on active duty in the Navy from 1970-1972. I lost a couple of childhood friends in Vietnam and I often think how senseless their sacrifice was and it makes me sick. I remember my first visit to the "Wall" and seeing their names, it was an emotional and sobering experience to say the least. History has a unique way of repeating itself and the lessons our leaders did not learn from Vietnam are now being repeated in Iraq and Afghanistan. SMH.
Notice the title of the 1st episode - Deja Vu. We repeated the failures of the French.
 

rolltide_21

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I’m just now getting to watch this. It is excellent.I was ignorant of the conflict with the French and Vietnam before our conflict. They wanted independence from colonialism. We were fighting a losing battle from the start. I also didn’t realize we were allies with Ho Chi Mein during WW2 and he saw us accordingly. I loved the title for the first episode- “deja vu”. I’m looking forward to the rest of the episodes. I’m not well studied about the Vietnam War and this is very informative. Thank you for the recommendation.


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GrayTide

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It seems that while the WH and its cabinet wanted America to believe we were at war with communism (which was a popular fall back position at the time) we were at war with nationalism a much stronger force than communism. The government of South Vietnam then was as crooked as our government is now. We never learn anything from our mistakes, and sadly never will. Don't know how much time I have left, but I will never trust the U.S. government on anything.
 

4Q Basket Case

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Notice the title of the 1st episode - Deja Vu. We repeated the failures of the French.
The first few minutes of the movie, We Were Soldiers Once touches on that, and references Dien Bien Phu. It's a good history lesson. Fair warning, though...it's a brutal opening, not at all suitable for kids.

As several posters have mentioned deja vu, a few years after the events of Ia Drang (WWSO's subject matter) we came within a gnat's eyelash of reprising the French failure at DBP with one of our own at Khe Sanh.
 

rolltide_21

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War is hell.
Hell is other people.

Indeed.
You’re exactly right. One of the N. Vietnamese soldiers in the first episode stated something which was very powerful, “The one’s who debate who ‘won’ are the ones who didn’t fight in it.”

That will stick with me especially when political pundits and politicians start discussing if we are “winning” a war.


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Bamaro

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The first few minutes of the movie, We Were Soldiers Once touches on that, and references Dien Bien Phu. It's a good history lesson. Fair warning, though...it's a brutal opening, not at all suitable for kids.

As several posters have mentioned deja vu, a few years after the events of Ia Drang (WWSO's subject matter) we came within a gnat's eyelash of reprising the French failure at DBP with one of our own at Khe Sanh.
Khe Sanh was indicative of the futility and waste of the entire war. After fiercely defending the base at Khe Sanh and actually winning and ending the months long siege, we quickly decided to abandon the base anyway. As is shown in this series, we did similar over and over during this war capturing hills and then quickly abandoning them (as with Hamburger Hill). All of this done at great cost of life, suffering and money.:mad:
 

rolltide_21

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Khe Sanh was indicative of the futility and waste of the entire war. After fiercely defending the base at Khe Sanh and actually winning and ending the months long siege, we quickly decided to abandon the base anyway. As is shown in this series, we did similar over and over during this war capturing hills and then quickly abandoning them (as with Hamburger Hill). All of this done at great cost of life, suffering and money.:mad:
History Channel’s Vietnam in HD spends an entire episode on this. It was the first war not about territory but about body count. We would take a hill, leave, and then the VC would retake it. “Search and destroy” was a costly strategy which led to failure.


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4Q Basket Case

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Several thoughts here.

Frustrating though it seems, the abandonment of hard-won ground wasn’t really the sign of futility in Vietnam that it would have been in other wars. Bear with me, because the reason requires some background.

Here’s the deal: We often hear that the American Army never had the support of “the people” in that war. Given the protests and civil unrest back at home during that time, many today naturally assume that it’s referring to the American people.

That’s not right.

What kept us from winning was not the lack of unified support at home. It was that we never had the consensus support of the Vietnamese people.

Those people had been subjugated for decades if not centuries. Whether the knife is held by a Chinese, or a French Colonialist, or a Maoist Communist, or an American capitalist, it doesn’t really matter if the blade is a half-inch from your carotid.

So to a lot of the populace, especially the rural populace, we were just the latest in a long string of outsiders.

That has military implications because it meant we were forever fighting guerilla actions in our rear. Actually, that’s not exactly right, because there were no “lines” in the traditional sense. So there was neither a front nor a rear. Essentially, the enemy was both everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

Complicating matters, were they exceedingly difficult to identify. Distinguishing non-combatants from folks trying to kill you was virtually impossible. Age (young or old), sex, and outward appearances were meaningless.

What they weren’t was stupid.

They knew they couldn’t win pitched battles with any consistency. So they used ambushes and booby traps to create paranoia and constant – as in 24 / 7 / 365 – tension with our troops. Then, after a firefight (which my friends who were there tell me was often a release and respite from the tension), the enemy would just evaporate into the countryside.

They tell me it was like trying to catch smoke in your hands.

So the objective was not to hold ground, as was the case in most previous wars. The objective in Vietnam was to kill opposing soldiers. And we were pretty dang good at it.

Which finally brings me back around to the idea that abandoning ground -- after killing several thousand of the enemy -- wasn't inconsistent with a winning strategy.

Look, I'm not defending everything our leaders did. We clearly mismanaged the war on several fronts – never really defined what “victory” would be and we hamstrung our military efforts by putting geographical restrictions on ourselves that our enemies didn’t have.

In a well-meaning limitation on time in-country, we inadvertently changed the objective of the individual soldier from winning the war with his buddies (as it had been for all previous wars) to simply surviving, alone if necessary, for 365 days.

But none of those mistakes would have mattered if we’d had the support of the Vietnamese people. Which we didn’t.

My personal favorite quote about the American era in Vietnam was spoken during the final days of the American presence by a North Vietnamese colonel.

An American delegation was in Hanoi negotiating the treaty.

One of our colonels was speaking with a North Vietnamese colonel. The American commented, “You know, you never beat us in a pitched battle.”

To which his adversary replied, “That is true. It is also irrelevant.”

I’ve used that line in all sorts of contexts ever since I heard it.
 
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Bodhisattva

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My wife and I finally are able to take some time off with the holidays and start watching the series. We finished episode eight last night. There's not much I didn't already know, but getting my wife's perspective on the history has been enlightening. Retelling where her dad was fighting over the course of the war, where her uncles were taken by the VC (never to be seen again), where her grandmother was during the relevant fighting, etc. has been tough. The corruption of the Vietnamese government is a constant to this day.

What is sadly not amazing are the lies and incompetence on the part of our federal government. The "smartest people in the country" sure were monumentally dumb. The willingness to sacrifice tens of thousands of lives and trillions in taxpayer money - not for political gain, but to try to minimize political loss - is disgusting and criminal. It should perhaps give those who want to give more power to the government pause. But, it won't. For all the evidence of the stupidity and incompetence of government, there are many who can't wait to surrender more money and authority to the beast.
 

Tidewater

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What amazes me is that the president, in his capacity as commander-in-chief, directed bombing against North Vietnam, but did not allow the USAF and Navy to first eliminate the air defense networks. He should have mined the crap out of Haiphong harbor to cut off the North Vietnamese from Soviet air, eliminated North Vietnamese SAMs and AAA, including the US use of naval gunfire, of which we had an abundance (USS New Jersey was recommissioned in 1968 and probably could have been recommissioned much earlier). Once North Vietnam was rendered defenseless, I would have bombed military targets in North Vietnam until magnetic north pointed to Hanoi. We flew airplanes over known North Vietnamese SAM sites and AAA
The bigger issue, however is what political objective were the United States trying to achieve? Defeat North Vietnamese military invasion of the South? Give an interval for South Vietnamese ruling elites to develop and implement some form of liberal democracy? That is a non-military objective requiring a lot of non-military resources. I'm not at all convinced that South Vietnamese ruling elites were interested in liberal democracy, so this would probably have been a fool's errand.
In the domestic US environment, I think you should either declare war on North Vietnam for their clear aggression against RVN and overtly commit the American people to the cause, or don't go at all. Trying to do it on the cheap politically was a disaster.
 

tidegrandpa

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What amazes me is that the president, in his capacity as commander-in-chief, directed bombing against North Vietnam, but did not allow the USAF and Navy to first eliminate the air defense networks. He should have mined the crap out of Haiphong harbor to cut off the North Vietnamese from Soviet air, eliminated North Vietnamese SAMs and AAA, including the US use of naval gunfire, of which we had an abundance (USS New Jersey was recommissioned in 1968 and probably could have been recommissioned much earlier). Once North Vietnam was rendered defenseless, I would have bombed military targets in North Vietnam until magnetic north pointed to Hanoi. We flew airplanes over known North Vietnamese SAM sites and AAA
The bigger issue, however is what political objective were the United States trying to achieve? Defeat North Vietnamese military invasion of the South? Give an interval for South Vietnamese ruling elites to develop and implement some form of liberal democracy? That is a non-military objective requiring a lot of non-military resources. I'm not at all convinced that South Vietnamese ruling elites were interested in liberal democracy, so this would probably have been a fool's errand.
In the domestic US environment, I think you should either declare war on North Vietnam for their clear aggression against RVN and overtly commit the American people to the cause, or don't go at all. Trying to do it on the cheap politically was a disaster.
I think when Johnson ended the bombing, March '68, he compressed the next CIC's time frame for meaningful action, I'm still amazed with what was going on in our country at the time, Nixon was as assertive and aggressive as he was.
 

crimsonaudio

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What is sadly not amazing are the lies and incompetence on the part of our federal government. The "smartest people in the country" sure were monumentally dumb. The willingness to sacrifice tens of thousands of lives and trillions in taxpayer money - not for political gain, but to try to minimize political loss - is disgusting and criminal. It should perhaps give those who want to give more power to the government pause. But, it won't. For all the evidence of the stupidity and incompetence of government, there are many who can't wait to surrender more money and authority to the beast.
When anyone trusts the US government it tells me that they've not studied history much.
 

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