The case for a progressive foreign policy

Jon

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Unless the parents are harming their children I'll defer to their choices for their kids. My default setting is to let people make their own choices and reap the rewards/detriments of those decisions.
teaching your kids that the earth is 6000 years old, evolution is a lie to turn you from a magic sky man, global warming is a hoax to kill capitalism and that all people who don't believe the exact same as you need to be converted or spend an eternity burning in agony is harming your children.

same as if you use those vouchers to send your kids to a school that says "allah is the only way" and "Jihad is the only path to allah"

this is harm

and the kids have no choice in the matter

I used to like vouchers too, would love to have them for my kids, but then I embrace reality, far too many don't
 

92tide

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Being a libertarian, I would think we would agree on things about half the time.



In short, my preference is for vouchers so parents can choose the best school for their kids. Public schools are hit and miss. Let parents use market forces to make public schools better.
the biggest issue i have with vouchers is that they will create a downward spiral in already challenged schools. while from a market perspective, that helps clear out the bad and promote the good, there are still going to be a lot of kids in the "bad" schools. additionally, here in georgia we have upwards of 30k homeless students, i seriously doubt that they (and many others) are going to get decent support from their parents/guardians wrt vouchers.
 
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crimsonaudio

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Honest question: social programs like free or heavily subsidized public education (with the option of personally funded private education) seem to be very popular and effective in other parts of the world. Why don't you believe a similar program could possibly work here as well?
Not to defend our wasteful defense spending, but one reason we don't have these social program sis that we spend so much doing what the rest of the world doesn't. Much of Europe enjoys socialism because they know they can rely on the US to defend them.
 

pcfixup

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Not to defend our wasteful defense spending, but one reason we don't have these social program sis that we spend so much doing what the rest of the world doesn't. Much of Europe enjoys socialism because they know they can rely on the US to defend them.
Add to that until they started taking in muslims in the 90s they were mostly homogeneous.
 

Tide1986

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I agree that the default setting on our foreign policy should be non-interventionist. It doesn't follow that we have massive wealth redistribution to fund socialistic domestic policy. Sanders claims big government is destructive abroad but somehow wonderful domestically? You can't ignore half of reality.
Yeah, I love the way he celebrates freedom yet wants the government to run all of the major aspects, and even the minor aspects, of our lives.
 

Tide1986

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You know that's an oversimplification.

His juxtaposition of the GOP handing the Pentagon $700 billion (more money than was requested, mind you) while simultaneously campaigning to eliminate health insurance from millions of Americans in order to finance a giant tax cut for the 1% is a pretty sharp criticism, considering current events. And he's spot on when stating that you can't separate foreign and domestic policies in 2017. Investment in either comes from the same communal pot, and IMO we've been dumping far too much into foreign concerns while ignoring domestic investment. The Iran deal may not be perfect, but I'd suggest it has had a more positive outcome than the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. It's obviously been far less expensive. Many European countries have very small military budgets, but invest considerably more money to offer free/affordable education and healthcare to its citizens. IMO, investing in people and the future citizenry is typically more effective on a societal level than investing in the monetary black hole that is the F-22 project. Now, I'm not suggesting that we swing as far to the domestic side of the investment spectrum as much of Europe, but we've lived on the far opposite end for a very long time. I think it's a discussion worth having, and I'm glad Bernie is bringing it up both here and in his universal healthcare proposal (which I don't entirely support).

This isn't directed at you, Selma, but I was hoping this thread could focus on the substantive points he brings up rather than rehashing memes from the 2016 primaries.
The juxtaposition of defense spending and healthcare spending is less confusing when one views the role of government through a constitutional lens.
 

CharminTide

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Not to defend our wasteful defense spending, but one reason we don't have these social program sis that we spend so much doing what the rest of the world doesn't. Much of Europe enjoys socialism because they know they can rely on the US to defend them.
Agreed. Although Luxembourg probably doesn't require a large standing military, given that they don't routinely occupy middle east territories.
 

Bodhisattva

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teaching your kids that the earth is 6000 years old, evolution is a lie to turn you from a magic sky man, global warming is a hoax to kill capitalism and that all people who don't believe the exact same as you need to be converted or spend an eternity burning in agony is harming your children.

same as if you use those vouchers to send your kids to a school that says "allah is the only way" and "Jihad is the only path to allah"

this is harm

and the kids have no choice in the matter

I used to like vouchers too, would love to have them for my kids, but then I embrace reality, far too many don't
I think your disdain for religion is allowing you to make mountains out of molehills. I agree that the education you describe above is not wise, but who decides that it is harmful? Do you trust parents or government more? How much are you willing to spend and how big a bureaucracy to you want to create to stop one's freedom of choice? What happens when said government inevitably starts to creep? What happens when said government decides that home schooling and atheism are harmful to your children?

I'll stand on my earlier stated position: My default setting is to let people make their own choices and reap the rewards/detriments of those decisions.
 

Jon

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I think your disdain for religion is allowing you to make mountains out of molehills. I agree that the education you describe above is not wise, but who decides that it is harmful? Do you trust parents or government more? How much are you willing to spend and how big a bureaucracy to you want to create to stop one's freedom of choice? What happens when said government inevitably starts to creep? What happens when said government decides that home schooling and atheism are harmful to your children?

I'll stand on my earlier stated position: My default setting is to let people make their own choices and reap the rewards/detriments of those decisions.
you bring up great points and I have largely defaulted to freedom as you know well but man the consequences of a stupid electorate are real and freaking scary. Look at where we are today with the Orange fool wagging his tiny junk at north korea and iran daring for far more wars. How far are you willing to let that go? Are you ok with vouchers being used to send kids to muslim jihaddist schools? What about scientology kids, want to pay for that? I don't
 

Bodhisattva

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the biggest issue i have with vouchers is that they will create a downward spiral in already challenged schools. while from a market perspective, that helps clear out the bad and promote the good, there are still going to be a lot of kids in the "bad" schools. additionally, here in georgia we have upwards of 30k homeless students, i seriously doubt that they (and many others) are going to get decent support from their parents/guardians wrt vouchers.
You make a good point, and I'm sure there's not a utopian solution. Yes, bad schools will go away and replaced by something better. Consumer choice will drive not only the quality of the schools but also the offerings in various schools. Some kids will surely fall through the cracks, but they are falling through the cracks now. Touching on crimsonaudio's post the other day, these kids have much more fundamental issues at home. If the parents are not going to act like parents, it's very hard for a third party to overcome that. But, I can't think of anything better than vouchers that addresses most of the problems regarding bad public schools.
 

Bodhisattva

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you bring up great points and I have largely defaulted to freedom as you know well but man the consequences of a stupid electorate are real and freaking scary. Look at where we are today with the Orange fool wagging his tiny junk at north korea and iran daring for far more wars. How far are you willing to let that go? Are you ok with vouchers being used to send kids to muslim jihaddist schools? What about scientology kids, want to pay for that? I don't
I have had a major Cassandra Complex for decades when it comes to the choices of our electorate, so I'm not disagreeing with you at all on that. Regarding the choice of schools, I believe the overwhelming majority of parents want the best they can provide for their children. I don't want the choices of Muslim fundamentalists or scientologists (to use your examples) to deprive everyone else of their choices. The line is crossed, however, if the school advocates criminal activity. Advocating goofiness is not enough IMO.
 

Jon

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I have had a major Cassandra Complex for decades when it comes to the choices of our electorate, so I'm not disagreeing with you at all on that. Regarding the choice of schools, I believe the overwhelming majority of parents want the best they can provide for their children. I don't want the choices of Muslim fundamentalists or scientologists (to use your examples) to deprive everyone else of their choices. The line is crossed, however, if the school advocates criminal activity. Advocating goofiness is not enough IMO.
Goofiness? These same christian schools tell kids that gays and non Christians neither have nor deserve the same rights as others. That isn't goofy it's evil
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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Goofiness? These same christian schools tell kids that gays and non Christians neither have nor deserve the same rights as others. That isn't goofy it's evil
Do they teach them that they should neither have nor deserve the same rights as others or just based on their religious interpretation that gays and non-Christians are going to hell? Let me text my brother-in-law in Mobile to find out. I'll let you know. His kids go to a Christian school.
 
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Jon

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Do they teach them that that should neither have nor deserve the same rights as others or just based on their religious interpretation that gays and non-Christians are going to hell? Let me text my brother-in-law in Mobile to find out. I'll let you know. His kids go to a Christian school.
depends on the school of course. It is based on the incorrect belief that we are an explicitly Christian nation. Look at any shcool that uses David Bartons books as "History"
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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depends on the school of course. It is based on the incorrect belief that we are an explicitly Christian nation. Look at any shcool that uses David Bartons books as "History"
I'm still waiting for the government to disclose about our alien origin. Can you imagine? Mass hysteria would ensue. :lurk5:
 

Tide1986

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Do they teach them that that should neither have nor deserve the same rights as others or just based on their religious interpretation that gays and non-Christians are going to hell? Let me text my brother-in-law in Mobile to find out. I'll let you know. His kids go to a Christian school.
I guess there might be an instance out there somewhere, but I've seen no Christian movement to deny the aforementioned people their rights. They have the same rights that I do as far as I can tell...maybe more because I'm not a member of a special interest group.
 

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