What does standing for the anthem and flag mean?

AlexanderFan · Oct 13, 2017

Tidewater said:
I have generally stayed out of this.
My views are fairly straightforward:
Every American (including every football player) is free to do what he pleases during the national anthem.
I am free to not watch the NFL as long as its players kneel during the national anthem. I will continue to not watch the NFL as long as this disrespect goes on. (I haven't watched a game this season).
To me, kneeling during the national anthem is a deliberate act of disrespect to the nation's flag and the nation it represents (Kaepernick said so himself). It is a smidgen above setting a US flag on fire during the national anthem. But only a smidgen.
If NFL players are outraged by racial inequalities and police violence against minorities, I'm right there with them. I'm ticked off by that as well. But disrespecting the flag of the Navy that helped stop the trans-Atlantic slave trade, disrespecting the flag of the country that elected (within the last decade) a black man (and the son of an immigrant) president is frankly misguided and breathtakingly irrational.
As Nate Boyer brought out, it has moved beyond respecting the flag/protesting inequalities. Now it is about who is going to "win" the debate, and how this can be used to prove Trump wrong. Just because Trump says something does not make it wrong. It Trump said the sun rises in the east and you look west tomorrow morning for the sunrise, you are a fool. I think Trump is playing this like Obama played the "not born in the US" controversy. He is letting this play out because it makes his opponents look silly.
This is a serious issue when people are being taught that disrespecting the national flag is "cool" or "edgy" and "socially conscious." Impressionable young people are watching what these men are doing and learning some terrible lessons: The United States are not a good country. This nation is not worthy of the respect of its citizens. In fact, it is more virtuous to actively disrespect that nation.

So go ahead and excuse this behavior. Cheer on those disrespecting the nation. What may follow this disrespect is that the nation may no longer find young men and women willing to risk their all to defend it. And there is a very good chance that what comes next will be neither as just or as virtuous as what we now have slipping through our fingers. And that will be a pity for all mankind.

America is far and and away the worst country in the universe, get with the hip kids.

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GrayTide · Oct 13, 2017

I realize this is a sensitive topic to both factions and in all likelihood is not going to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. So, do away with the cause by having all teams, at every level, stay in the locker room until the National Anthem is completed. Entirely to simple, it will never work.

XXIII · Oct 13, 2017

Tidewater said:
Can Trump not be a buffoon and kneeling during the national anthem also be disrespectful? Can't both statements be true?

Think this sums it up perfectly. Loudest on both sides refuse to remove blinders.

bobstod · Oct 13, 2017

Personally, I render a hand salute. That was not permitted in the navy unless you were covered, but has been declared legal and respectful for veterans. However, if I were a member of a class of American citizens that has suffered discrimination, hatred, and denial of equal rights I would probably kneel as well if I had the national attention these players have. Purposely misinterpreting their gesture as disrespectful of American values is a cop-out, in my opinion, and a cover-up for bigotry.

I grew up in South Alabama. I remember "white only" drinking fountains and indiscriminate use of the "N" word. Used it myself. I grew out of that, though...

Tidewater · Oct 13, 2017

GrayTide said:
I realize this is a sensitive topic to both factions and in all likelihood is not going to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. So, do away with the cause by having all teams, at every level, stay in the locker room until the National Anthem is completed. Entirely to simple, it will never work.

That is really sidestepping the issue, isn't it? There are players that want to engage in symbolic speech to intentionally disrespect the flag, and many fans do not like that behavior. Staying in the locker room will allow them to continue to disrespect the nation without having to jeopardize their incomes by doing so.

92tide · Oct 13, 2017

bobstod said:
Personally, I render a hand salute. That was not permitted in the navy unless you were covered, but has been declared legal and respectful for veterans. However, if I were a member of a class of American citizens that has suffered discrimination, hatred, and denial of equal rights I would probably kneel as well if I had the national attention these players have. Purposely misinterpreting their gesture as disrespectful of American values is a cop-out, in my opinion, and a cover-up for bigotry.

I grew up in South Alabama. I remember "white only" drinking fountains and indiscriminate use of the "N" word. Used it myself. I grew out of that, though...

you may need to add a trigger warning bobstod

Tidewater · Oct 13, 2017

Chukker Veteran said:
I think glorifying Confederates and the Confederate flag is extremely disrespectful to our beloved national flag.

In the late 19th century, Democrats generally opposed Prohibition, favored immigration, which at the time meant Italians, Irish Catholics and Poles and almost all ex-Confederates had been Democrats.
The Republican party used to castigate the Democrats as the party of "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion."

Congrats, you are now parroting Republican propaganda.

Chukker Veteran · Oct 13, 2017

Trying to improve conditions in this country by bringing attention to the problem is what honoring the flag is all about.
Trying to disguise racism by hiding behind the flag is unbelievably disrespectful, in my opinion.

TIDE-HSV · Oct 13, 2017

While we're being churlish, I will unburden myself of an old peeve. I haven't jumped into the fray because, TBF, I feel some sympathy for each of the two sides of this discussion. However, from the standpoint of a soloist who has delivered the anthem to begin many events, I feel that any rendition of the anthem which has as its purpose the drawing of attention to the soloist is distracting and disrespectful. By that, I mean ornate and elaborate flourishes and runs. IMO when you're out there for the anthem, you're there to focus attention on the anthem and the flag, not to focus attention to yourself. Wait until you're on a stage where people have paid just to see and hear you... /rant

Chukker Veteran · Oct 13, 2017

Tidewater said:
In the late 19th century, Democrats generally opposed Prohibition, favored immigration, which at the time meant Italians, Irish Catholics and Poles and almost all ex-Confederates had been Democrats.
The Republican party used to castigate the Democrats as the party of "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion."

Congrats, you are now parroting Republican propaganda.

You are a good wordsmith, but simply wrong on this issue.

Tidewater · Oct 13, 2017

bobstod said:
Purposely misinterpreting their gesture as disrespectful of American values is a cop-out, in my opinion, and a cover-up for bigotry.

Bob, if somebody who says kneeling during the national anthem is disrespectful, they are really just bigots?
Just want to be clear here.

Tidewater · Oct 13, 2017

Chukker Veteran said:
Trying to improve conditions in this country by bringing attention to the problem is what honoring the flag is all about.
Trying to disguise racism by hiding behind the flag is unbelievably disrespectful, in my opinion.

Same question, anyone who criticized others for kneeling during the anthem is really just a racist?

Chukker Veteran · Oct 13, 2017

bobstod said:
Personally, I render a hand salute. That was not permitted in the navy unless you were covered, but has been declared legal and respectful for veterans. However, if I were a member of a class of American citizens that has suffered discrimination, hatred, and denial of equal rights I would probably kneel as well if I had the national attention these players have. Purposely misinterpreting their gesture as disrespectful of American values is a cop-out, in my opinion, and a cover-up for bigotry.

I grew up in South Alabama. I remember "white only" drinking fountains and indiscriminate use of the "N" word. Used it myself. I grew out of that, though...

Some people just absolutely refuse to try to understand what motivates these protests. I think you have highlighted exactly why they take this position.

Jon · Oct 13, 2017

Chukker Veteran said:
Some people just absolutely refuse to try to understand what motivates these protests. I think you have highlighted exactly why they take this position.

I think a large percentage of them are just so brainwashed by the ridiculous "more patriot than you" bs propaganda that they refuse to see anything else

but many of them just see black men being "uppity" and this is a good enough excuse to tell them to "keep quiet and be happy we let you have this much"

CharminTide · Oct 13, 2017

bobstod said:
Purposely misinterpreting their gesture as disrespectful of American values is a cop-out, in my opinion, and a cover-up for bigotry.

Perfectly stated. Whether intentional or not, it's a defense mechanism. It's far easier to express anger and indignation than to face honest introspection.

92tide · Oct 13, 2017

Jon said:
I think a large percentage of them are just so brainwashed by the ridiculous "more patriot than you" bs propaganda that they refuse to see anything else

but many of them just see black men being "uppity" and this is a good enough excuse to tell them to "keep quiet and be happy we let you have this much"

freedom fries uber alles

Chukker Veteran · Oct 13, 2017

Tidewater said:
Same question, anyone who criticized others for kneeling during the anthem is really just a racist?

Certainly not everyone, but I think it is far more common than you seem to realize.

We had a Trump/Strange rally recently down the road from where I live, it was in Huntsville. As part of his speech, Trump brought up McCain, expecting the crowd to accommodate him by booing the war hero. They were happy to follow script, McCain was roundly booed.
My point is that I bet every single person there booing McCain were also very critical of the players kneeling. There is a cross correlation here.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 13, 2017

So...my choices per both "sides" in this are:

1. Be disrespectful of the flag or support that

or...

2. Be a racist

Wow. Are those really the only 2 choices here?

Well frankly, both sides can go to hades.

You don't get to define me by whether I think kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful or if I support doing it. I have much stronger words but I like posting here and more than that I generally respect all of you as people.

And both sides are firmly entrenched and unmoveable now. Wow. You've all done such a great job of moving the important issues forward. Why, without the vitriol being slung back and forth causing everyone to feel alienated we might actually be able to come to a mutual understanding about the problems some of our brothers and sisters are facing and foster a love for the flag and nation. We might be able to respect the liberties of another and still love our country.

What makes me sick are the knee jerk reactions and the insults. Neither of you are making any friends. IOW, you aren't convincing anyone that doesn't already agree with you. Maybe if you treated others with respect they might respect you and maybe we could move past this nonsense.

Sorry for the rant. Just sick of it even as it gets worse.

CharminTide · Oct 13, 2017

NationalTitles16 said:
So...my choices per both "sides" in this are:

1. Be disrespectful of the flag or support that

or...

2. Be a racist

TW may be trying to frame it this way, but not all are. FWIW.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 13, 2017

CharminTide said:
TW may be trying to frame it this way, but not all are. FWIW.

TW is not the only one in this. It's not even unique to this board. And this time it is both sides becoming intolerable. I'm just sick of it. You are free to your opinion, but I'm just telling you how each side is framing it currently and that I don't like it either way.

What does standing for the anthem and flag mean?

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