What does standing for the anthem and flag mean?

NationalTitles16 said:

TW is not the only one in this. It's not even unique to this board. And this time it is both sides becoming intolerable. I'm just sick of it. You are free to your opinion, but I'm just telling you how each side is framing it currently and that I don't like it either way.

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I mean, we probably agree on this.

"Agree with me about everything or you're racist" is just as silly and unproductive as "I refuse to even talk because it's easier to be offended."

One group has healing crystals on their nightstand and gets coffee enemas on Saturday, while the other have become the very snowflakes they insulted 12 months ago.

CharminTide said:

I mean, we probably agree on this.

"Agree with me about everything or you're racist" is just as silly and unproductive as "I refuse to even talk because it's easier to be offended."

One group has healing crystals on their nightstand and gets coffee enemas on Saturday, while the other have become the very snowflakes they insulted 12 months ago.

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That's about the truth, but there have always been snowflakes and nuts on "both" sides.

I guess for me it comes down to a heretofore generally accepted custom: standing and taking your hat off during the national anthem was a show of respect for the flag and the country it represents.

And I suppose we are starting a new tradition: taking a knee during the anthem means calling attention to the wrongs suffered by people of color, especially at the hands of the police.

Colin Kaepernick was quite clear on this:

CK said:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

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The problem is that new custom (2) directly contradicts old custom (1) above. While I am sympathetic to the cause of custom 2 (racial inequalities and police violence), I find the symbolic speech in regard to pre-existing custom 1 to be troubling. Showing respect for the flag and the nation used to be something that united Americans, men and women, black and white, Republican and Democrat, north, south, east, and west.
I believe that this is a pretty darn good country. Not perfect, but pretty darn good. I think we should focus on fixing those areas that need fixing, without undermining the good.

One more historical note and I'l back out of the conversation again:
In A.D. 451 a "Roman" army fought the invading Huns under Attila. The Roman army consisted of Visigoths, Alans, Franks, Sarmatians, Saxons, Armoricans, Burgundians, none of whom were loyal to Rome, but to their tribal leaders, who had to be convinced to fight against the Huns. Precious few Romani were there to fight. Maybe Roman citizens lost sight of the good things about the empire and thus were not motivated to defend their country and were content to let others fight for them. In any case, the western empire was gone within a quarter of a century and what replaced it was not nearly as virtuous, secure, enlightened, peaceful as what had existed before. It took the west half a millennium to recover from that collapse.
So when people start undermining the foundations of this republic, even in simple, symbol ways like standing and uncovering for the national anthem, I think it is a step in a very bad direction. Not the entire journey to damnation, but a step. I'm afraid we won't like what comes next nearly so much as what we now have and we'll wonder where it went.

Tidewater said:

I guess for me it comes down to a heretofore generally accepted custom: standing and taking your hat off during the national anthem was a show of respect for the flag and the country it represents.

And I suppose we are starting a new tradition: taking a knee during the anthem means calling attention to the wrongs suffered by people of color, especially at the hands of the police.

Colin Kaepernick was quite clear on this:


The problem is that new custom (2) directly contradicts old custom (1) above. While I am sympathetic to the cause of custom 2 (racial inequalities and police violence), I find the symbolic speech in regard to pre-existing custom 1 to be troubling. Showing respect for the flag and the nation used to be something that united Americans, men and women, black and white, Republican and Democrat, north, south, east, and west.
I believe that this is a pretty darn good country. Not perfect, but pretty darn good. I think we should focus on fixing those areas that need fixing, without undermining the good.

One more historical note and I'l back out of the conversation again:
In A.D. 451 a "Roman" army fought the invading Huns under Attila. The Roman army consisted of Visigoths, Alans, Franks, Sarmatians, Saxons, Armoricans, Burgundians, none of whom were loyal to Rome, but to their tribal leaders, who had to be convinced to fight against the Huns. Precious few Romani were there to fight. Maybe Roman citizens lost sight of the good things about the empire and thus were not motivated to defend their country and were content to let others fight for them. In any case, the western empire was gone within a quarter of a century and what replaced it was not nearly as virtuous, secure, enlightened, peaceful as what had existed before. It took the west half a millennium to recover from that collapse.
So when people start undermining the foundations of this republic, even in simple, symbol ways like standing and uncovering for the national anthem, I think it is a step in a very bad direction. Not the entire journey to damnation, but a step. I'm afraid we won't like what comes next nearly so much as what we now have and we'll wonder where it went.

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That doesn't seem like a racist POV at all. You share an important perspective and I thank you for that.

I also appreciate the opposing POV and believe two things: 1. Individual liberty is more important than conformity and 2. If we can't withstand that maybe we deserve whatever we get, but I believe we can withstand it and that that liberty makes us not only better but without it the country and its flag aren't worth respecting.

It's quite possible - even likely - that racial inequality and systemic oppression will destroy this country long before any disrespect for the flag will. Frankly, I think that gets missed in all of this even though it's the root cause of several contentious issues we face as a nation today, in 2017. If we don't face these things head on together and get it worked out then we will remain divided and will fall in any case. If that means we swallow our pride and try to understand something that hurts it so that we overcome it to help bring about a better and more united country that treats its citizens better afterward then it's worth it to me from that viewpoint as well.

I also, frankly, think calling your opinion racist is divisive and intellectually lazy. Pretending that people of good will can't possess it and remain sympathetic to those who offend your sense of pride in your country does nothing to solve our problems and only serves to further divide us. We can acknowledge your feelings as legitimate and still disagree without further derailing the issue and causing more division then hopefully move on to solve the underlying problem. CK tried to to understand the former green beret's POV and even changed the way he protested as a result. He didn't just continually insult him. He tried to understand the other side too even as he worked to get his point across. Some of his supporters are having a problem following his example and that's too bad as well.

Let me try to clarify a few things here.

My preference when the protests started was to stand for the anthem. It struck me as wrong also. I understand that point of view and agree it is not based on racism.

With further thought, and also Trump's loutish intervention, I now more appreciate the point behind the protests, and can respect that point of view as much as I could respect my first instinct, which was to stand.

It's easy to misconstrue someone's position to demonize them, and on this board everybody enjoys a debate and the back and forth or they wouldn't be here.

Kneeling seems a mild form of protest in my opinion, a respectful gesture traditionally. It is understandable this bothers some more than others. We pride our country for tolerating different opinions. The absolute refusal to recognize or acknowledge the very real problem the players are trying to bring attention to is racist, in my opinion.

If my posts have been twisted into a personal attack against Tidewater, that was not my intention. He is a poster who's point of view I have enjoyed for a long time.

Chukker Veteran said:

Let me try to clarify a few things here.

My preference when the protests started was to stand for the anthem. It struck me as wrong also. I understand that point of view and agree it is not based on racism.

With further thought, and also Trump's loutish intervention, I now more appreciate the point behind the protests, and can respect that point of view as much as I could respect my first instinct, which was to stand.

It's easy to misconstrue someone's position to demonize them, and on this board everybody enjoys a debate and the back and forth or they wouldn't be here.

Kneeling seems a mild form of protest in my opinion, a respectful gesture traditionally. It is understandable this bothers some more than others. We pride our country for tolerating different opinions. The absolute refusal to recognize or acknowledge the very real problem the players are trying to bring attention to is racist, in my opinion.

If my posts have been twisted into a personal attack against Tidewater, that was not my intention. He is a poster who's point of view I have enjoyed for a long time.

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I certainly did not take anything as an attack on me personally. I was just asking a question.
Jefferson said “error is harmless where truth is free to combat it.”
Kneeling is a mild form of protest, but it is still intended to deny a gesture of respect from a citizen to his country.
I agree that the president behaves in a "loutish" manner, but if that causes us to do the opposite in order to spite him, we are still allowing a lout to dictate our behavior. This is why we need an exogenous standard for conduct. Our long-standing tradition and custom is standing and uncovering.
And the sad thing is I'm in sympathy with what the players say they are doing, even if I dissent from how they are saying it. I'd rather them have conduct some other gesture. If they were to match donations to buy body cams for police departments where questionable police shootings occur (daylight being the best disinfectant), I'd donate to that cause.

Tidewater said:

Kneeling is a mild form of protest, but it is still intended to deny a gesture of respect from a citizen to his country.

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Which in turn should give people pause to consider why they feel that denying a measure of respect is necessary rather than just jumping on the "fire that SOB" mentality. And causing people to reflect on what is at the root of the issue is part of the point of protests in the first place.

We can call them ungrateful rich spoiled children but after a sitting President asked for them to be fired for it a lot more millionaires (many of whom came from nothing) decided to risk their lively hood to join the protest. I'd like to think if I felt that strongly about something I'd be willing to take the risk of losing the easy life for it. If anyone wants to give me a mill or two we can test it out.

I used to would have been on the side of those against the kneeling, but I've paid more attention to disparity in justice & just general society of dealing with police in part because of my deep dive into wrongful conviction stories.

Chukker Veteran said:

Let me try to clarify a few things here.

My preference when the protests started was to stand for the anthem. It struck me as wrong also. I understand that point of view and agree it is not based on racism.

With further thought, and also Trump's loutish intervention, I now more appreciate the point behind the protests, and can respect that point of view as much as I could respect my first instinct, which was to stand.

It's easy to misconstrue someone's position to demonize them, and on this board everybody enjoys a debate and the back and forth or they wouldn't be here.

Kneeling seems a mild form of protest in my opinion, a respectful gesture traditionally. It is understandable this bothers some more than others. We pride our country for tolerating different opinions. The absolute refusal to recognize or acknowledge the very real problem the players are trying to bring attention to is racist, in my opinion.

If my posts have been twisted into a personal attack against Tidewater, that was not my intention. He is a poster who's point of view I have enjoyed for a long time.

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First, I'm glad you respect TW as do most of us. Most of us also respect you.

That said, I hope no one is insinuating that I "twisted" any words from anyone, especially twisting them into a personal attack. I was quite purposeful in trying to avoid language that would indicate that opinion, although I have to say that it would be easy to interpret your words that way and if one were so inclined my own words to mean something they didn't.

But when we start painting those with a certain opinion as having an ulterior motive we run the danger of people taking us at our word. This happens all to often these days. Someone opposes Obamacare? They may be trying to hide it, but they're really just letting their racism show. Voted against Obama? Same thing. Oppose kneeling during the anthem? Ditto. and on and on it goes. I hear it over and over here and on facebook and twitter and TV and so on.

I used to talk with someone close to me about these types of issues and they'd just go off on Republicans and others and how they were just hiding their racism in opposing Obama's agenda at the time. I'd point out that that includes me. Did she believe that racist described me? "Well, I don't mean you are racist". People in the streets protesting Obama's actions on this or that? "Just a bunch of racists." But I oppose Obama on that issue as well and would consider joining in potentially. "Well, notyou." Within 5 minutes we're back to "those people doing that" but "not you".

And while I readily admit there are plenty of racists that share some POV's with me, saying outright or implying everyone who holds that opinion is just disguising their racism isn't made better by adding the caveat of "not you". Whether the intent is really and truly to include people you personally know or not you've included them in your default thinking. The fact you know it not to be true of someone you know should be proof enough that your thinking is flawed and should be reconsidered.

By "you", I intend to mean the proverbial and ubiquitous "you" and not necessarily "you personally" except where it directly applies like in the first paragraph although "you" may at times include "you". In any case I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, just to demonstrate that words have meaning.

I believe CV and TW are honorable fellows with good hearts and intentions and not hateful malicious people.

Tidewater said:

Maybe that is something Boyer and Kaepernick worked out.
Well, we already have a custom. When the national anthem is playing, people stand and remove their hats and place their right hand over their hearts.
Doing anything other than that is disrespectful. Period.
This has been the custom for a long time (more than a century, actually).

Or, are you saying that the intentions of the speakers are all that matters when engaging in symbolic speech?

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I think you’ve posted this before, but here it is again: “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color...”

These are his original words (true feelings?) before he decided to dress up his stance, ostensibly for financial reasons.

bobstod said:

Personally, I render a hand salute. That was not permitted in the navy unless you were covered, but has been declared legal and respectful for veterans. However, if I were a member of a class of American citizens that has suffered discrimination, hatred, and denial of equal rights I would probably kneel as well if I had the national attention these players have. Purposely misinterpreting their gesture as disrespectful of American values is a cop-out, in my opinion, and a cover-up for bigotry.

I grew up in South Alabama. I remember "white only" drinking fountains and indiscriminate use of the "N" word. Used it myself. I grew out of that, though...

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Given your logic, we might as well disband these United States because every single American belongs to some classification that has experienced discrimination, hatred, and denial of rights at some point in the country’s history.

crimsonaudio said:

I'm not a democrat, and while I respect your service and almost always agree with you, I refuse to pledge allegiance to a flag or place my hand over my heart in order to honor the national anthem. I stand and if I'm wearing a hat, remove it, but that's it.

There's a thin line between honoring the sacrifice of those who have fought for my freedoms and paying homage to an idol. I only serve / pledge allegiance to one thing, and it's not a flag or even a country - it's beyond all this man-made divisive stuff.

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I may have stated this previously, but the flag and the anthem are two symbols of our unity. They don’t mean we all agree with one another (reference congress as a sign of how much we agree with each other). They mean that no matter how much we fight and disagree with one another we are still a family that flourishes or dies together.

Tide1986 said:

Given your logic, we might as well disband these United Sttes because every single American belongs to some classification that has experienced discrimination, hatred, and denial of rights at some point in the country’s history.

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Uhhh I think the degree of discrimination is important here.

Tidewater said:

If NFL players are outraged by racial inequalities and police violence against minorities, I'm right there with them. I'm ticked off by that as well. But disrespecting the flag of the Navy that helped stop the trans-Atlantic slave trade, disrespecting the flag of the country that elected (within the last decade) a black man (and the son of an immigrant) president is frankly misguided and breathtakingly irrational.

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This is patently absurd. ​I'm so mad about racial inequalities but don't protest in a way I disagree with because at least we helped end that slave trade we greatly benefited from and elected one black guy as president.

NationalTitles16 said:

I believe CV and TW are honorable fellows with good hearts and intentions and not hateful malicious people.

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Thank you for that. I feel the say way about you. I'm sure most posters on Tidefans respect you also.

I had assumed TW knew me well enough to understand I was not trying to personally attack him, he seems to have confirmed that. I was a little put off when TW asked me if everyone upset about the kneeling was a racist. I thought he knew me better than that, but so be it.

I seem to have gotten sideways with two of my more favorite posters, you and TW. And Earle, if I've offended you with churlish posting I will try not to do it again.

RollTide_HTTR said:

Uhhh I think the degree of discrimination is important here.

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So there is some objective measure apart from the feelings of the so-called aggrieved?

Interesting. Not sure this happens if the AfD hadn't picked up so many seats in the Bundestag.

German soccer team takes a knee before Bundesliga game ‘for a tolerant Berlin’

Chukker Veteran said:

Thank you for that. I feel the say way about you. I'm sure most posters on Tidefans respect you also.

I had assumed TW knew me well enough to understand I was not trying to personally attack him, he seems to have confirmed that. I was a little put off when TW asked me if everyone upset about the kneeling was a racist. I thought he knew me better than that, but so be it.

I seem to have gotten sideways with two of my more favorite posters, you and TW. And Earle, if I've offended you with churlish posting I will try not to do it again.

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We're good. Wasn't ever mad at you. I also didn't think you meant any direct insult to anyone here. If I had thought that I would have called you out by name and been very direct about it in my post. I was ticked off (perhaps even triggered), but not at you personally.

RollTide_HTTR said:

This is patently absurd. ​I'm so mad about racial inequalities but don't protest in a way I disagree with because at least we helped end that slave trade we greatly benefited from and elected one black guy as president.

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I'm sorry, but that is not patently absurd. Disrespecting the United States because cops in Ferguson and Baltimore (etc.) killed black men is absurd. The United States did not killed Mike Brown. A Ferguson, Mo. police officer did. The United States did not kill Freddie Gray. Baltimore cops did.
Given your logic, the players should also protest the UN, because the US is a member state.
The UN could rightly say, "You're protesting us? We did not kill Brown and Gray."

CharminTide said:

Interesting. Not sure this happens if the AfD hadn't picked up so many seats in the Bundestag.

German soccer team takes a knee before Bundesliga game ‘for a tolerant Berlin’

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From the article.

The German national anthem is not usually played before Bundesliga games, and was not on Saturday.

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