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Spain On The Verge of Civil War?

DzynKingRTR

DzynKingRTR

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Tidewater said:
Catalonia should be ejected from Spain for having the ugliest cathedral on the planet.


On a more serious note, I'd have to see the list of Catalonian grievances before I could judge the righteousness of their cause.
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I never liked it. Thought it was horrible. Some of my fellow architects like it. The name of the architect? Gaudi actually pronounced Gow Dee.
 
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selmaborntidefan

selmaborntidefan

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Intl.Aperture said:
With everything going on in the news in regards to natural disasters and now the horrific tragedy in Las Vegas this news item hasn't gotten much domestic traction.

For those who aren't aware, here are a few snippets.



So long story short - Catalonia wanted a referendum to vote for their independence, Spain said "it's illegal", Catalonia said "well our parliament said it was ok and the people who live here should get to choose" and so Spain sent in police to suppress the vote and over 900 people were injured in altercations with said police.

I'm only aware of this because I got a call out of the blue from one of my filmmaker friends who was in Croatia at the time. He lives and mostly works in L.A. and doesn't have a ton of experience shooting docs abroad. He asked if I'd been keeping up with the news on the referendum and I told him I had no clue what he was talking about. He briefed me and said he was considering flying there to cover the coming days and weeks and see if there was a possible documentary to get out of it. I encouraged him to go and gave him some advice and he's on the ground now living with some pro-independence..uh..petitioners, or protesters, I guess you could call them. He's saying that after the police response and the King's remarks a lot of locals who were on the fence are beginning to favor independence.
What think you?
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Since I try to find humor in situations (and there's none here), this sorta reminds me of a skit during the early days of the Reagan administration.

Ronnie and Nancy are spending their first night in the White House. The new admin is not sure whether to awaken Reagan or not, so he tells them that for awhile they need to call anyway and he'll let them know if they're right or wrong.

First call - "I didn't know whether to wake you or not, sir, but Florida has massive flooding and is under ten feet of water."
Reagan - "Take pictures in the morning." Click.

Second call - "I didn't know whether to call or not, sir, but Spain has just attacked France and fighting has broken out all over Europe."
Reagan - "Call Dan Rather." Click.

Third call - "Mr President, the Navy is missing."
Reagan - "Well don't call me, send the Army out to look for it."

Fourth call - "I didn't know whether to call or not, sir, but....one of your old movies is on the late show...."
Reagan - "EVERYBODY UP!!!!"
 
Tidewater

Tidewater

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Short article and bibliography on the legalities of secession.
The bottom line to the question, "is secession legal?" is "sometimes, if you can act like a country."

Can Catalonia make it as an independent country? Probably. As independent as, say, Luxemburg is. I think Spanish refuseniks are thinking (a) Catalonia is our cash cow and we'll be worse off financially without her and (b) the Basques will be next to ask for their independence. Neither reason is compelling in my view to over-rule the the Catalonians' desire to cease being Spain's cash cow.
 
TIDE-HSV

TIDE-HSV

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CaliforniaTide said:
There's an amazingly good documentary on Netflix about the peace process between the Basques and the Spanish government. I'm not aware of any Catalonian separatist groups with a military arm like ETA for the Basques but I could be wrong.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6431828/
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I will look at it, although I did follow it fairly closely TBF, I was astounded. The Catalan language is at least somewhat related to Spanish, although it is more closely related to French, being one of the Occitan family, which stretches from Catalonia, across Provence to northern Italy. We buy Cavit pinot grigio from northern Italy. On the label, it it has "Langue D'Oc." (Language of the Occitans) It's an ancient tongue and they've never seen themselves as Spanish.

The Basques are a different case. Not only is their language related to no other language in Europe, their genetic haplogroups indicate they're different from other European populations in many respects. Anyone who doesn't think their drive for independence won't start up again, if Catalonia is granted independence, is not being realistic.

Spain, like Germany, is a conglomeration of small principalities and city-states. However the societal glue holding it together is not as strong as with the Germans, who, after all, have an overreaching sense of being "German." Also, the seven century rule of the Islamic Moors over Spain cannot be discounted...
 
Crimson1967

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If either the Basques or Catalans leave, would it cause the rest of the country to be physically divided?

I think if a part of a country wants to leave, the government has a right to fight to keep them in.


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TIDE-HSV

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Crimson1967 said:
If either the Basques or Catalans leave, would it cause the rest of the country to be physically divided?

I think if a part of a country wants to leave, the government has a right to fight to keep them in.


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I have mixed feelings, depending on the circumstances. As I've written, my family was on the union side in the Civil War, one GGF fighting in the Union Army and one having all his property confiscated for being a member of the Union League They were not atypical for the Tennessee Valley. However, this is a different matter. They have a distinct, ancient language and they have had autonomy on and off for centuries. In fact they have it now, to some degree. I guess it comes down to how you define a "country"...
 
NationalTitles18

NationalTitles18

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I'll use the Declaration of Independence as guide here. Are the causes that compel the people light and transient? I don't really know. The people certainly have a right to change an oppressive government when they no longer consent to rule by it, but is the cause worthy? I don't know enough about this situation to give my humble opinion.
 
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LA4Bama

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I don't know all of their grievances either, but if the two main reasons are taxation and national pride then they should probably not do it. The last thing Europe needs is to be divided up into rich and poor nationalities with no common bond to bridge them. Sometimes the price of long term peace is being taxed. Besides, the EU will tax them too, and then send the money to Greece as well as to southern Spain. They should handle the national pride element with federalism, which it sounds like they already do.
 
Crimson1967

Crimson1967

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TIDE-HSV said:
I have mixed feelings, depending on the circumstances. As I've written, my family was on the union side in the Civil War, one GGF fighting in the Union Army and one having all his property confiscated for being a member of the Union League They were not atypical for the Tennessee Valley. However, this is a different matter. They have a distinct, ancient language and they have had autonomy on and off for centuries. In fact they have it now, to some degree. I guess it comes down to how you define a "country"...
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I see your point there. A lot of European countries are a bunch of former independent lands conquered by a long ago king. Lands that are treated like red headed stepchildren by the government even today.

But obviously it is in the government's best interest to keep them in the fold. But a people with a distinct language and culture who didn't want to be there to begin with will always feel excluded.

It is different in a country like ours.


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B

bama_wayne1

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LA4Bama said:
I don't know all of their grievances either, but if the two main reasons are taxation and national pride then they should probably not do it. The last thing Europe needs is to be divided up into rich and poor nationalities with no common bond to bridge them. Sometimes the price of long term peace is being taxed. Besides, the EU will tax them too, and then send the money to Greece as well as to southern Spain. They should handle the national pride element with federalism, which it sounds like they already do.
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Gorbachev says "Hi"
 
Bamaro

Bamaro

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Catalans declare independence as Madrid imposes direct rule
he Catalan regional parliament has voted to declare independence from Spain, while the Spanish parliament has approved direct rule over the region.

Catalan MPs easily approved the move amid an opposition boycott.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy had told senators direct rule was needed to return "law, democracy and stability" to Catalonia.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

 
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4Q Basket Case

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Free admission: I'm not as informed as a lot of posters here. But from what I have read, it seems to me that this is at the core an economic issue, only wrapped in emotion and history.

Apparently, the Catalans are more advanced in terms of both industry and technology than the rest of Spain. So they feel that they're giving a lot more than they get, that it's been going on for a long time, and that the rest of Spain shows no inclination to catch up.

So they're tired of being the free ATM for what they now view as a bunch of leeches.

Not saying they're right. Not saying they're wrong. Just saying that that's how the Catalans see it.

So it seems to me that this boils down to what most national and international disputes do: money and land.

The emotion gets people stoked. But if the Catalans as a whole viewed the arrangement with the rest of Spain as economically advantageous, it would be only a small minority of firebrands advocating secession.
 
IMALOYAL1

IMALOYAL1

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Spain needs to send in the Army to burn them to the ground. Catalonia may never recover from reconstruction if they refuse to pay the imposed tariffs and try to secede.
 
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