Spain On The Verge of Civil War?

Intl.Aperture · Oct 4, 2017

With everything going on in the news in regards to natural disasters and now the horrific tragedy in Las Vegas this news item hasn't gotten much domestic traction.

For those who aren't aware, here are a few snippets.

Catalonia will declare independence from Spain within days, the region’s leader said late Tuesday...Carles Puigdemont pledged to defy Madrid and implement the results of Sunday's banned independence referendum which went ahead despite a violent crackdown by Spanish police that left 900 people injured.

"We are to declare independence 48 hours after all the official results are counted," he said in an interview with the BBC. "This will probably finish once we get all the votes in from abroad at the end of the week and therefore we shall probably act over the weekend or early next week."

Spain has been rocked by the poll and the Spanish police response to it, which saw batons and rubber bullets used to prevent people voting. The bloody scenes brought international condemnation. Catalans took part in a general strike and protest Tuesday, shutting down road traffic, public transport and businesses and ratcheting up fears of unrest.

Opinion polls conducted before the vote suggested a minority of around 40 percent of residents in the region backed independence. But a majority wanted a referendum to be held, and the violent police crackdown angered Catalans across the divide.

So long story short - Catalonia wanted a referendum to vote for their independence, Spain said "it's illegal", Catalonia said "well our parliament said it was ok and the people who live here should get to choose" and so Spain sent in police to suppress the vote and over 900 people were injured in altercations with said police.

I'm only aware of this because I got a call out of the blue from one of my filmmaker friends who was in Croatia at the time. He lives and mostly works in L.A. and doesn't have a ton of experience shooting docs abroad. He asked if I'd been keeping up with the news on the referendum and I told him I had no clue what he was talking about. He briefed me and said he was considering flying there to cover the coming days and weeks and see if there was a possible documentary to get out of it. I encouraged him to go and gave him some advice and he's on the ground now living with some pro-independence..uh..petitioners, or protesters, I guess you could call them. He's saying that after the police response and the King's remarks a lot of locals who were on the fence are beginning to favor independence.
What think you?

Tidewater · Oct 4, 2017

Catalonia should be ejected from Spain for having the ugliest cathedral on the planet.

On a more serious note, I'd have to see the list of Catalonian grievances before I could judge the righteousness of their cause.

RollTide_HTTR · Oct 4, 2017

I have no idea where this goes because I don't know Spanish politics well enough but it's going to be interesting how this impacts the Basques as well. If Catalonia is successful and either gets independence I would assume that the Basques would try it again as well.

Bodhisattva · Oct 4, 2017

Tidewater said:
Catalonia should be ejected from Spain for having the ugliest cathedral on the planet.

That's what happens when your building material is milk chocolate, and you leave it out in the sun. Shoulda known better.

Intl.Aperture · Oct 4, 2017

Tidewater said:
Catalonia should be ejected from Spain for having the ugliest cathedral on the planet.
On a more serious note, I'd have to see the list of Catalonian grievances before I could judge the righteousness of their cause.

To apply a blunt edge I think it stems from what they believe to be years and years of mistreatment at the hands of the rest of Spin. Culturally, Catalonia is much different than the rest of Spain, their own language, different customs etc etc. Apparently ,the last dictator they had in the 70's was especially harsh on the Catalonian people and they don't feel that much has changed in the time since. They still feel like 2nd class citizens. Couple that with the fact that Catalonia makes most of Spain's revenue because of Barcelona and the region's tourism.

It has some of the same civil angst that was present in Ukraine when the East wanted to split from the West..but there's no "Russia" involved here.

uafanataum · Oct 4, 2017

I just hope we so not get involved in another foreign nations civil war.

MattinBama · Oct 4, 2017

I haven't followed this story that closely other than having seen similar allegations involving Russia pushing their agenda in this as well:

http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/

There could be an unlikely winner in this weekend’s efforts to hold an independence referendum in Catalonia: Russia.

In recent weeks, Russian state-backed news organizations and automated social network accounts, known as bots, have aggressively promoted digital misinformation and outright fake news about the politically charged vote planned for Sunday, according to an analysis of recent online activity.

There could be an unlikely winner in this weekend’s efforts to hold an independence referendum in Catalonia: Russia.

In recent weeks, Russian state-backed news organizations and automated social network accounts, known as bots, have aggressively promoted digital misinformation and outright fake news about the politically charged vote planned for Sunday, according to an analysis of recent online activity.

Putin is either the biggest bogeyman in the history of the world or Russia is the one doing all the winning.

Bodhisattva · Oct 4, 2017

They can't get along, so a portion of the country wants to leave peacefully. But, the national government prefers conflict for monetary reasons. Sounds so familiar ......

crimsonaudio · Oct 4, 2017

Tidewater said:
On a more serious note, I'd have to see the list of Catalonian grievances before I could judge the righteousness of their cause.

Does it really matter? Should a people be forced to remain part of a country if they wish to dissolve that union?

Bodhisattva · Oct 4, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
Does it really matter? Should a people be forced to remain part of a country if they wish to dissolve that union?

That's my default setting. If a woman wants to end a marriage, she should be able to leave. Why would the man want to make her stay against her will? Best for both to settle their investments/debts, dissolve the arrangement, and move on with their lives.

Tidewater · Oct 4, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
Does it really matter? Should a people be forced to remain part of a country if they wish to dissolve that union?

It does for me, if I am being asked for my judgment on their cause (which I believe is the case here).

Thomas Jefferson said:
"Governments long established should be changed for light and transient causes."

Ultimately, however, it is the judgment of the self-perceived victims that should have the final say.

Thomas Jefferson said:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

I'm sure the "ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" crowd will be along shortly to extol the virtues of brutally-enforced political centralization.

Displaced Bama Fan · Oct 4, 2017

Bodhisattva said:
They can't get along, so a portion of the country wants to leave peacefully. But, the national government prefers conflict for monetary reasons. Sounds so familiar ......

Racist.

Displaced Bama Fan · Oct 4, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
Does it really matter? Should a people be forced to remain part of a country if they wish to dissolve that union?

Double racist.

TIDE-HSV · Oct 4, 2017

I think the brutal attempted repression by the Spanish government has probably foreordained separation. Before that, it was about 50-50. The new country would have to negotiate for entry into the EU (how do you think Spain would regard that?) and there are multiple financial/banking ties to dissolve and reform. Catalonia would have a tough row to hoe for several years, which is why so many opposed separation. Personally, I think with Brexit, Scotland will seek another secession vote and the secessionists will win...

Bodhisattva · Oct 4, 2017

Displaced Bama Fan said:
Racist.

Displaced Bama Fan said:
Double racist.

Well, I'm only half as bad as crimsonaudio, so I have that going for me.

Bamaro · Oct 4, 2017

Tidewater said:
Catalonia should be ejected from Spain for having the ugliest cathedral on the planet.

Looks like something from Harry Potter. I expect to see it start talking.

Tidewater · Oct 4, 2017

Or, in this case, just because you are different, doesn't mean you are beautiful.

CaliforniaTide · Oct 4, 2017

Tidewater said:
Catalonia should be ejected from Spain for having the ugliest cathedral on the planet.

On a more serious note, I'd have to see the list of Catalonian grievances before I could judge the righteousness of their cause.

Just give the project some more time, it'll be beautiful eventually!

CaliforniaTide · Oct 4, 2017

There's an amazingly good documentary on Netflix about the peace process between the Basques and the Spanish government. I'm not aware of any Catalonian separatist groups with a military arm like ETA for the Basques but I could be wrong.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6431828/

bamachile · Oct 4, 2017

I wonder if Germany will get involved again?

Spain On The Verge of Civil War?

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