He means punts, too.Ends in a kick, not a punt. That translates to points.
He means punts, too.Ends in a kick, not a punt. That translates to points.
Just looking at the big picture here....not necessarily saying this to you Krazy, but you kinda bring up the window to look into this.I think if you want to look to what would work for Hurts, Blake Sims is probably a good example.
I think we all know his first year Hurts was kind of in over his head at times, bad play calling situation, but also a true freshman trying to compete for a championship. You can't do too much under those circumstances. What I expected to see the coming year was Hurts throwing more (downfield) and running less.
What we saw was this hybrid thing where he at times they seem to be trying to use him as a pocket passer, and at times he's running a stunted RPO offense. The lack of commitment seems to have hurt as much as anything. If they wanted Hurts to become a true pocket passer, why did he throw so much less while running far too often? On the other hand, if they really wanted an effective RPO offense, why did they gut all the short stuff? It seems that having to account for Hurts running ability would create more opportunity for short passes to go for bigger gains.
Anyway, back to Blake Sims. He threw for 3,487 yards and 28 TDs. He also rushed for 350 yards and 7 TDs. Now, Blake Sims is better than the deep pass than Hurts is, but I think Hurts is better at protecting the football and is a better runner. The problem is look at what Hurts did this year, he threw for 2005 yards and 15 TDs while rushing 766 yards and 8 TDs. He had 36 TDs last year though! He clearly got better as a passer, and yet his production has tanked. That's not all his fault, no way that can all be his fault.
If Daboll had been able and willing to use him more like Kiffin used Sims, I think Hurts could have had a monster year. Kiffin gave Sims a steady diet of short stuff, allowing the playmakers Alabama had to make big plays, and then every once in a while he dialed up the home run, which by the way was usually such a simple read that sometimes Kiffin would have his arms in the air before the ball was released. He didn't force Sims into doing things he wasn't good at, and it paid off in a former running back having a great year.
Hurts could improve and get better, but there's just no question at all in my mind that while Daboll has developed Hurts as a passer, he hasn't done all he could to maximize his production. Now, may be after the season both Daboll and Hurts will be re-evaluated, but I'd really like to see the playcalling take advantage of what Alabama has on the field and stop trying to make it conform to some mediocre NFL offensive play calling scheme. The fact that some people can't seem to see that playcalling is obviously part of the issue boggles my mind. It isn't like anyone has ever accused Daboll of being an offensive genuis, I have no doubt that he's trying, but he simply has to adjust to the college game. The fact that Hurts is taking the fall while Daboll refuses to call things like a screen pass is pretty sad in my opinion.
In the second half, with Jalen at QB, the wheels came completely off. CNS see this. While overall, you can say that Jalen didnt have a terrible game overall there were several plays where he made decisions you cant make, especially with someone with as much experience as he has. I cant remember all the plays but I will give you a couple to simmer on - He took a 7 yd loss on a rollout pass with no defender in close pursuit and did not throw the ball away - he simply ran out of bounds. On the sequence of botched snap plays, he did not recognize Auburn had 12 men on the field, Bo was frantically calling for the snap and Jalen wasnt ready for it. I think at some point in the game there was delay of game penalty because Jalen did not call for the snap in time.Just looking at the big picture here....not necessarily saying this to you Krazy, but you kinda bring up the window to look into this.
I'm not putting a bow on our championship chances this year (and I'll gladly eat these words if somehow we get into the playoff and win it with our current hybrid scheme), but based on what I saw Saturday and some things I've heard, I'm going to assume right now we don't get in the CFP and if we do we might not be physically and emotionally sound enough to win it.
Counting the outstanding year we had with Sims and now two under Jalen, the offensive style worked but not to the fullest and intended end; a NC.
Looking ahead, I geniunely wonder how confident CNS is going forward into another year having not been able to win it with the RPO style we've used with Sims and Hurts. Understand this is nothing personal toward these two young men who have represented the program so well.
I know in another thread about offensive styles the overwhelming majority of our posters here would prefer to see us swing back to the pro-set. I've heard a couple people even say they don't think we'll win another NC employing the current scheme. I must admit the claim is backed up with 4 NC with the pro-set philosophy and 3 now with the RPO style that has not ended like we want it to. In the years we've had a traditional style of offense with CNS at the helm we've won the NC in 4 out of the 8 years and that's even counting CNS first year.
Now, I'm an armchair coach, but if I have a chance to reset next year with an OC who is definitely geared toward the pro-set and qb that looks like he might flourish in that scheme, I'm strongly considering it.
Question is, will CNS???
I think insufficient data is a major factor here. One could easily argue that Hurts this year is a better all around quarterback than Sims was that year or he was last year (he has a good passer efficiency without the crutch of relying on short stuff). So, that brings us back to how on earth the production is so terrible? It is clearly an element of round hole square peg. I just think it's a disservice to go oh well may be the problem is a dual threat QB or RPO, when Alabama hasn't run a decent RPO this year. Look at what Auburn did. Stidham had a better day, but they had him getting the ball out much earlier and throwing underneath the coverage more often. Daboll instead had Hurts hanging onto the ball longer, on slower routes and we saw how that worked.Looking ahead, I geniunely wonder how confident CNS is going forward into another year having not been able to win it with the RPO style we've used with Sims and Hurts.
Small matter but Jake Coker was only with the team 2 years.In the second half, with Jalen at QB, the wheels came completely off. CNS see this. While overall, you can say that Jalen didnt have a terrible game overall there were several plays where he made decisions you cant make, especially with someone with as much experience as he has. I cant remember all the plays but I will give you a couple to simmer on - He took a 7 yd loss on a rollout pass with no defender in close pursuit and did not throw the ball away - he simply ran out of bounds. On the sequence of botched snap plays, he did not recognize Auburn had 12 men on the field, Bo was frantically calling for the snap and Jalen wasnt ready for it. I think at some point in the game there was delay of game penalty because Jalen did not call for the snap in time.
Another thing that I think doesnt need to be glossed over, in any form of option offense RPO, there is a tendency for the QB and RB to fight over the handoff - I saw no evidence of that Saturday - but I cant for the life of me believe that it was by design that Damien/Bo were only supposed to get as few carries as they got in the second half. I think we saw the team losing confidence in the Jalen/Daboll approach. Its difficult to say where the disconnect is but Saban realizes something has to be done. He was hoping to manage it through until the season was over. However, for the second season in a row, he has seen that approach blow up in front of him. Its a delicate situation obviously for the offseason for CNS to reconcile. But, imo, Jalen did enough things wrong within the game that werent over his head that has given Saban a gateway to opening the competition up in the spring at QB playing. Another thing, Coach has a lot of respect for Daboll as a person and I think he is going to give him every opportunity to succeed and I dont think success is necessarily taking 1 player and developing him to the erosion of the rest of the team. I think last year Saban had legitimate concerns as to whether Kiffin was deliberately trying to tank the season after Barnett left. Truth be told, I wonder if Coach is largely responsible for this conundrum. Last year, he decided that Jalen would be the starter but Barnett was probably with some seasoning on the field more suited to the offensive attack that Saban wants to run. However, Barnett appeared to have a degree of petulance and immaturity and certainly didnt have the respect of his teammates. But based on pure physical abilities he was more suited to pro-style attack. But Jalen won the team with his quiet demeanor and his conservative play knowing that substantial changes were needed in the offense to take advantage of his skills and inexperience.
In our pro-style offenses, Saban has not started a QB with less than 3 years on the squad experience. I dont know if he will keep with that trend going forward. But I think he has to make decision what he wants his offensive identity to be through the remainder of his tenure and communicate, recruit, and execute to that and move on. In this way, Jalen is going to have to make a big leap in development in the spring to keep the job if Saban decides pro-style is the way to go. Because he is a long way from being an upper round draftable QB in the NFL.
Correct, he was an older player having 3 years in a different program but similar system. On transfer, despite getting every opportunity to win the job, he simply wasnt ready to come and lead the team right of the bat. Further evidence supporting that QBs need seasoning in a pro-style offense to lead it properly on our team.Small matter but Jake Coker was only with the team 2 years.
I wouldn't advocate for replacing JH for the mistakes he made in one game, but the fact the offense has struggled against the best defenses since he's been the starter is a matter that must be addressed.
Unfortunatley, the struggles we saw in this game may have more to do with team unity rather than their actual play. To be sure, team unity effects play, but just pointing out our struggles against Auburn may be deeper than our poor performance on the field.
If this is true, CNS has to do some serious juggling of personalities.
Part of that has to be giant red flags with the playcalling though. Last year, we saw Hurts struggle a lot in both the Washington and the Clemson game, but we now know that Kiffin was calling plays they hadn't practiced (so he might as well have been calling gibberish) and Sark (not really his fault, one week prep time) was calling the plays too early and Clemson was guessing them correctly. That would mess any quarterback up, but it obviously did a true freshman a disservice. Yes, he had issues, but he also has improved.I wouldn't advocate for replacing JH for the mistakes he made in one game, but the fact the offense has struggled against the best defenses since he's been the starter is a matter that must be addressed.
Daboll has developed Hurts well off the field, but it does feel like he has him on a 3 or 4 year plan, when clearly Alabama needs to win now. I still think a lot of people are failing to see just how good Hurts can be, and that's partially obfuscated by their forgetting how young he is (still younger than any starting QB Nick Saban has had at Alabama), but also because the play calling situation hasn't always done Hurts any favors.Further evidence supporting that QBs need seasoning in a pro-style offense to lead it properly on our team.
These are all good points, for sure. It's easy for all of us to get into the what have done for me lately mode. To be sure, Jalen has saved our bacon far more times than he has let us down. Our whole analysis has this sort of a "zit on the forehead of a beautiful woman" feel to it. The flaws are easier to spot when everything else is flawless. No matter how hard you try you can't stop looking at it.Part of that has to be giant red flags with the playcalling though. Last year, we saw Hurts struggle a lot in both the Washington and the Clemson game, but we now know that Kiffin was calling plays they hadn't practiced (so he might as well have been calling gibberish) and Sark (not really his fault, one week prep time) was calling the plays too early and Clemson was guessing them correctly. That would mess any quarterback up, but it obviously did a true freshman a disservice. Yes, he had issues, but he also has improved.
This year though, the play calling has been suspect against good defenses, but Hurts performance has generally been solid. He was better than Stidham against LSU (there Stidham laid and egg, doing worse than Hurts did against Auburn), and against Miss. State, the #13 passing defense, Hurts had a 186 passer rating. I have to reiterate, Hurts saved Alabama against Miss. State. He had to play a good game, he did, and on the key game winning play he actually changed the route Daboll called. So, I'm harping on that because while Hurts struggled against Auburn, he saved Alabama against Miss. State, so the notion of him just being bad against good defenses really isn't the story this year.
I should add, that passer efficiency, that's disregarding Hurts running ability, Hurts is the 15th ranked passer. Despite obvious deficiencies in the play calling, and obvious issues with protecting the passer, Hurts has still performed well overall. I just can't see writing him off as a lost cause when he's been a better passer than guys like Lamar Jackson and Sam Darnold. When I say Hurts is sixth in total QBR, that's significant. No quarterback in college football is perfect. J.T. Barret got blow out, twice. Fromm got blown out by Auburn. Baker Mayfield got beat by Iowa St. There's just nothing to indicate Hurts is a failure at QB, but there is plenty of evidence that he can be better utilized.
Daboll has developed Hurts well off the field, but it does feel like he has him on a 3 or 4 year plan, when clearly Alabama needs to win now. I still think a lot of people are failing to see just how good Hurts can be, and that's partially obfuscated by their forgetting how young he is (still younger than any starting QB Nick Saban has had at Alabama), but also because the play calling situation hasn't always done Hurts any favors.
It's going to get really interesting in 2018, possibly as early as January . . .What’s going to get interesting is that Hurts has shown no signs that he will be a three and done NFL QB. His durability is phenomenal, good chance he might not get injured. Tua is a good kid, but who could expect him to sit behind Hurts for almost his whole college career.
It’s going to get really interesting in 2019, if not sooner.
I'd agree with that assessment.Personally, I think Jalen can be developed within the prostyle offense but it has to include screens and passes to TEs, boots, and short intermediate routes primarily rather starting with longer throws first. Use his legs on 3rd and 4th down and operate with the rest of the offense on 1st and 2nd down.
It will also be interesting to see what type of QB we will sign next, and who. I know Saban offered Trevor Lawrence (pro style) who chose Clemson and Justin Fields (UGA) (dual). The guy committed to FL (Matt Coral) is pro style I think. He has an interest in Bama now.It's going to get really interesting in 2018, possibly as early as January . . .
I pray we go back to pro style QBs.It will also be interesting to see what type of QB we will sign next, and who. I know Saban offered Trevor Lawrence (pro style) who chose Clemson and Justin Fields (UGA) (dual). The guy committed to FL (Matt Coral) is pro style I think. He has an interest in Bama now.
Yeah, no more Tua and Hurts. We can consider that a failed experiment...I pray we go back to pro style QBs.
Not failed, but the jury is still out.Yeah, no more Tua and Hurts. We can consider that a failed experiment...
Here's the issue I have.Not failed, but the jury is still out.
Good analogy (zit on a beautiful woman). The issue with trying to force Jalen into being a prostyle qb is "why?" Why do that if the other qb is just that person. If there's a round hole in your philosphy, why try to force a square peg into it?These are all good points, for sure. It's easy for all of us to get into the what have done for me lately mode. To be sure, Jalen has saved our bacon far more times than he has let us down. Our whole analysis has this sort of a "zit on the forehead of a beautiful woman" feel to it. The flaws are easier to spot when everything else is flawless. No matter how hard you try you can't stop looking at it.
Personally, I think Jalen can be developed within the prostyle offense but it has to include screens and passes to TEs, boots, and short intermediate routes primarily rather starting with longer throws first. Use his legs on 3rd and 4th down and operate with the rest of the offense on 1st and 2nd down.
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The one thing that could challenge CNS's historical tendencies in this regard is the "locker room."Jalen has an incredible winning pct., has been a clutch player and leader of our team, and seems like a wonderful kid. However, I see no reason why there cannot be a true qb competitiono next year. Tua was very highly regarded out of high school, in limited appearances has shown excellent accuracy and ability to release the ball quickly and patiently waited out this year as the backup. IF Jalen proves the better all around qb...I have no issue.
I agree that , based upon Coach Saban's history, he is unlikely to replace a starter based on spring practice and training camp. Perhaps, if Jalen struggles during the season, Tua could get his chance and we could see if he is the answer. I for one am not pleased with the state of our passing game , considering our abundance of riches at WR. Obvioiusly, the same applies at the RB position...but that is for another thread!