Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

81usaf92

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If the U.S. Constitution had included a clause along the lines of the eventual XIII Amendment ("Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."), then there would not have been a United States as we know it. Georgia and South Carolina would certainly have declined to ratify such a constitution. (at the Philadelphia Convention, Gouverneur Morris, on July 11, 17817 said he "did not believe those (southern) States would ever confederate on terms that would deprive them of [the slave] trade." (Virginia, had already abolished the transatlantic slave trade by statute, if the Constitution proposed the abolition of slavery per se, the Commonwealth would have stood apart as well.) If the extension of the slave trade until 1807 had not been included, Rhode Island and perhaps Massachusetts might have declined. (On August 22, 1787 George Mason "lamented that some of our [North]Eastern brethren had from a lust of gain embarked in this nefarious [slave] traffic."Until 1807, the vast majority of the poor Africans dragged to America did so in American (i.e. New England) bottoms.
That is really interesting. Northerners, then as now, have as little interest in airing their dirty laundry as southerners did and do (which is why you heae some southerners say the war had nothing to do with slavery, which is simply not born out by the facts).
At supper a few weeks, back, I was speaking with a woman from Massachusetts. When I explained my views on the war, she literally started sputtering. She had never even considered any viewpoint but the "all slavery, all the time" viewpoint common to New England society down to this day.
When she finally was able to compose a grammatical sentence, her first take was, "We should have let the South go." To which I responded, "That was kind of the point, wasn't it?"
When she had calmed down a bit, she went back to the old mainstay, the great northern alibi, "What about the slaves?" When I reminded her of Lincoln's first inaugural address ("I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.") and the Congressional declaration of July 25, 1861 ("this war is not waged on their part in any spirit of oppression, or for any purpose of conquest or subjugation, or purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or established institutions of those (seceded) States, but to defend and maintain the supremacy of the Constitution, and to preserve the Union with all the dignity, equality, and rights of the several States unimpaired; and that as soon as these objects are accomplished the war ought to cease”), she changed the subject.
It was not that she had examined and rejected any alternative view to the New England school. She was completely unaware that any alternative existed. I later found out she had majored in U.S. history in college.
SI'm not going to go down the road of trying to argue small picture history about the Civil War with you because I think its been proven that the big picture the war was fought over slavery. To paraphrase the great Drew Carey, " If you don't like the fact that we wont accept your alternate take on history about the causes of the Civil War, then the confederates should've fought harder." or atleast not quit...
Ive never seen a bigger obsession over trying to rationalize the motivations of a losing side more than the confederates. The simple fact is that we are talking about of traitors... or "rebels" that lost a war pretty much means that whatever cause they went in for wasn't worth the fight to see that history wouldn't look unkindly upon them. Maybe since underdogs like the NVA, Soviets during WWII, and even the colonists during the Revolution resisted certain defeat vs a superior power I just don't have much sympathy for the confederacy lost cause.
 
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Tidewater

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I find it interesting that you invoke the words of Lincoln to argue that the North had no care to free slaves. Yet when presented with the words of Confederate leaders claiming the preservation of slavery was, in large part, the impetus behind their rebellion, you insist that their words have no meaning.
I would simply suggest that neither the South, nor the North was a monolith. There were all kinds of shades of opinion in both regions. Of course there were southerners who were extremely interested in preserving their immoral form of "property." And there were others, (the majority actually) who never owned slaves and who never would. In the North were people who, commendably, held racially egalitarian view (but even John Brown, who was pretty extreme in his racial egalitarianism, at Harper's Ferry armed the liberated slaves with pikes, not the rifles he had brought with him in abundance). And in the North, there were those who expressed reprehensibly racist views about black people, yet just wanted to keep the Union together.
People are complex. Large groups of people border on the chaotic.
 

Its On A Slab

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Good opinion piece in WaPo (paywalled)

Why young Southerners are still indoctrinated in the Lost Cause

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...t-cause/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a7d61c90bb99
I have my own theory. It is called The Kudzu Theory.

In the South, the ignorance of history, the heavy weight of race in general......will grow up around your brain like kudzu if you don't keep a keen eye on your bearings. It is so easy just to sit back and listen to the continued lies and distortions, and give in to the prevailing dumbassery. It's everywhere.
 

81usaf92

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I have my own theory. It is called The Kudzu Theory.

In the South, the ignorance of history, the heavy weight of race in general......will grow up around your brain like kudzu if you don't keep a keen eye on your bearings. It is so easy just to sit back and listen to the continued lies and distortions, and give in to the prevailing dumbassery. It's everywhere.
I have my own theory, and its "black and white" history being taught in grade school. I'm not talking about race, I'm talking about a lack of in depth study into history. Out of all the core subjects, history is probably the most glossed over one. I believe most kids accept the "Lost cause" story because it is the most indepth part of the story most ever receive. I think history is mostly left up for interpretation about things, and its best if you get more information when the brain is developing. Otherwise you get folks saying " the Athenian democracy worked" and "I would side with the Senate over Caesar as a poor person had I lived at that time because I don't believe in tyrants.".
 

Tidewater

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Good opinion piece in WaPo (paywalled)

Why young Southerners are still indoctrinated in the Lost Cause

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...t-cause/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a7d61c90bb99
I would be happy to read the article, but I am not going to give the Washington Post a dollar for the privilege.

Dictionary.com defines indoctrinate this way: "teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."
Let's examine some of the beliefs the Treasury of Virtue/northern view of events.
"The Union is indivisible."
On what date did the Union become indivisible? By what mechanism? Is it still indivisible?

"The North went to war to free the slaves."
This despite Abraham Lincolns statement in his inaugural address, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." And the July 25, 1861 congressional declaration that "this war is not waged on our part in any spirit of oppression, nor for any purpose of conquest or subjugation, nor purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or established institutions of those States, but to defend and maintain the supremacy of the Constitution (sic) and to preserve the Union, with all the dignity, equality, and rights of the several States unimpaired; and that as soon as these objects are accomplished the war ought to cease."

Sounds like the Lost Cause is not the only set of beliefs the uncritical acceptance of which is being urged.
 
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Tidewater

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Not sure this fits well here, but rather than start a new thread, here it goes.

China Invokes Abraham Lincoln in Justifying Push to Take Taiwan

“American friends told me that Abraham Lincoln was the greatest American president because he led the country to victory in the Civil War and prevented the secession of the U.S.,” Wei said on Sunday at the Shangri-La Dialogue, a security conference in Singapore. “The U.S. is indivisible, so is China. China must be and will be reunified.”
 

TIDE-HSV

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The real irony is that Formosa has been inhabited by indigenous Polynesian peoples for 5K years. The Han Chinese came after the Dutch had conquered and colonized the island in the 1600s. The present government of the island trace to the fleeing nationalists in 1948. IOW, Taiwan is no more "Chinese" than, for example, Tibet. The Han make our "Manifest Destiny" forbears look like pikers...
 

seebell

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https://www.newser.com/story/276923/schools-get-creative-in-changing-dicey-names.htmle

Name changes cost money!

Consider the plight of Robert E. Lee High School in Texas, which was looking at a $1.3 million bill to replace its "Lee High School" signs, field logos, uniforms, etc. Solution? Change the name of the school to the Legacy of Educational Excellence, or LEE High School. The move shaved $1 million off the cost of the change.

The new school mascot is a service dog!! Wonder what the old mascot/logo was? General Lee on Traveler I betcha.
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/e...gh-s-new-Volunteers-mascot-to-be-12800646.php



 
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92tide

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https://www.newser.com/story/276923/schools-get-creative-in-changing-dicey-names.htmle

Name changes cost money!

Consider the plight of Robert E. Lee High School in Texas, which was looking at a $1.3 million bill to replace its "Lee High School" signs, field logos, uniforms, etc. Solution? Change the name of the school to the Legacy of Educational Excellence, or LEE High School. The move shaved $1 million off the cost of the change.

The new school mascot is a service dog!! Wonder what the old mascot/logo was? General Lee on Traveler I betcha.
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/e...gh-s-new-Volunteers-mascot-to-be-12800646.php



from the article
The old logo had 13 stars and a cartoon depiction of Confederate soldier “Grumpy Gus.”
maybe it was post-appomattax lee and that's why he was grumpy
 

Tidewater

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The local Lee High School nearby got renamed recently. The city council announced it, accepted public comment a while, and then pulled the trigger on the rename. No rioting. Not much fuss. Lee had little to do with the town anyway.
I think they should renamed it Washington and Lee after Booker T. Washington and Lee. Washington was a famous Virginian and the former African-American high school had been named after him. The current high school was formed by the unification of students from Lee and students from Booker T. Washington.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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The local Lee High School nearby got renamed recently. The city council announced it, accepted public comment a while, and then pulled the trigger on the rename. No rioting. Not much fuss. Lee had little to do with the town anyway.
I think they should renamed it Washington and Lee after Booker T. Washington and Lee. Washington was a famous Virginian and the former African-American high school had been named after him. The current high school was formed by the unification of students from Lee and students from Booker T. Washington.
I posted way above that Lee High here was named for the Lee Highway. I suppose the highway was named after the general. Anyway, it's an art magnet school with a heavily black student body. The black grads I know are quite fond of the school and the name doesn't seem to bother them...
 

seebell

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Here ya go Tidewater! Give these morons a history lesson.

https://www.newser.com/story/271684/vandals-apparently-attack-wrong-general-lee-statue.html

Clueless Vandals May Have Confused 2 General Lees Museum in North Carolina honors a World War II Lee, not the Civil War Lee



the museum in Dunn honors the Lee who served in World War II, the Charlotte Observer reports, and was a pioneer in air warfare. "This is not a Civil War museum," museum curator Mark Johnson tells WNCN. The Lees were not related.​

I have very little respect for vandals.
(Now Visigoths, that's different)
 

Tidewater

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Here ya go Tidewater! Give these morons a history lesson.

https://www.newser.com/story/271684/vandals-apparently-attack-wrong-general-lee-statue.html

Clueless Vandals May Have Confused 2 General Lees Museum in North Carolina honors a World War II Lee, not the Civil War Lee



the museum in Dunn honors the Lee who served in World War II, the Charlotte Observer reports, and was a pioneer in air warfare. "This is not a Civil War museum," museum curator Mark Johnson tells WNCN. The Lees were not related.​

I have very little respect for vandals.
(Now Visigoths, that's different)
Maybe the vandal hates airborne troops?
 

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