Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

81usaf92

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I just got back yesterday from my vacation to South Carolina, DC, and Gettysburg.

I’ve never felt CSA statues were appropriate, but felt it was up to the community to remove them democratically. That was until I went to Gettysburg. Those fields are haunting ( not in the hokey ghost tours way). You see how every inch of places like Little Round Top, the Peach Orchid, Devil’s Den, and Cemetery Ridge were covered in gallons upon gallons of Americans blood just to keep a immoral way of life alive.

The CSA monuments there (Gettysburg) are very direct in their message. They are more saying “ Remember those who died here because of our politicians decisions to send us here”. 95% of the statues outside of places like Gettysburg and Antietam more say “ Screw those not like us, and the South was right”.

I think all statues that aren’t remembering a certain unit who died (LSU) and aren’t at a national park should go or have an * on them describing what the South fought for because it is on par with celebrating the Nazis. I had a professor at UA saying places like Morgan hall or anything associated with Confederate sympathizers should have a plaque identifying why those people fought for the south in front of the buildings instead of renaming them. I’m all for that compromise even though I would be more for removal and replacement.

Flame on
 
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Tidewater

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i saw this yesterday in the ajc, it is great

Maybe DeKalb employees can open their duty day with a two minute hate at the monument.

The new plaque says, "the real catalyst," the definite article "the" followed by the singular noun means "sole" or "only." This is, of course, ludicrous and easily proven so. All one would have to do to disprove the assertion is to find some other reason, any other reason, for which the state declared its intention to leave the Union. To the proof by quotations.

Georgia Secession Declaration
The people of …our non-slave-holding confederate States … have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility,† and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, ‡ … The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. These interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency. The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.* …
The faithless conduct of our adversaries is not confined to such acts as might aggrandize themselves or their section of the Union. They are content if they can only injure us. The Constitution declares that persons charged with crimes in one State and fleeing to another shall be delivered up on the demand of the executive authority of the State from which they may flee, to be tried in the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. It would appear difficult to employ language freer from ambiguity, yet for above twenty years the non-slave-holding States generally have wholly refused to deliver up to us persons charged with crimes affecting slave property.** Our confederates, with punic faith, shield and give sanctuary to all criminals who seek to deprive us of this property or who use it to destroy us. This clause of the Constitution has no other sanction than their good faith; that is withheld from us; we are remediless in the Union; out of it we are remitted to the laws of nations.# …
The public law of civilized nations requires every State to restrain its citizens or subjects from committing acts injurious to the peace and security of any other State and from attempting to excite insurrection, or to lessen the security, or to disturb the tranquillity of their neighbors, and our Constitution wisely gives Congress the power to punish all offenses against the laws of nations.
These are sound and just principles which have received the approbation of just men in all countries and all centuries; but they are wholly disregarded by the people of the Northern States, and the Federal Government is impotent to maintain them. For twenty years past the abolitionists and their allies in the Northern States have been engaged in constant efforts to subvert our institutions and to excite insurrection and servile war among us. They have sent emissaries among us for the accomplishment of these purposes. Some of these efforts have received the public sanction of a majority of the leading men of the Republican party in the national councils, the same men who are now proposed as our rulers. These efforts have in one instance led to the actual invasion of one of the slave-holding States, and those of the murderers and incendiaries who escaped public justice by flight have found fraternal protection among our Northern confederates.
These are the same men who say the Union shall be preserved. …
They give sanctuary to thieves and incendiaries who assail it to the whole extent of their power, in spite of their most solemn obligations and covenants; because their avowed purpose is to subvert our society and subject us not only to the loss of our property but the destruction of ourselves, our wives, and our children, and the desolation of our homes, our altars, and our firesides. To avoid these evils we resume the powers which our fathers delegated to the Government of the United States, and henceforth will seek new safeguards for our liberty, equality, security, and tranquillity.
Approved, Tuesday, January 29, 1861
† Here Georgia is referring to the act of terrorism committed at Harper’s Ferry in October 1859, an attack Republicans knew about a year and a half before it happened but did nothing to prevent.
‡ You might think this is referring to the fugitives form labor clause, but Toombs (the drafter of the declaration) was referring to the fugitives from justice clause of the Constitution.
* Here, Toombs is referring to what we now call “crony capitalism,” and the Morrill Tariff, first proposed in May 1860 which greatly increased the protection of northern industry and impoverished, to an equal degree consumers in the agricultural South and Midwest.
** Here Toombs is referring to the official protection given to men of John Brown’s “army” who escaped in the aftermath of the Harper’s Ferry raid. These men, Barclay Coppoc, Francis Merriam and Owen Brown, escaped to state with Republican governors and those Republican governors refused to honor requests for their arrest and extradition, even though the Constitution demands the arrest of fugitives from justice.
# Here Toombs echoes statements he made in his speech in the Senate of the United States in January 1860 and before the Georgia legislature in November 1860. The jus gentium applies to relations between nations. Since Ohio and Iowa were inside the United States, Georgia only protection against what would otherwise be violations of international law was the constitution of the United States. The governors of Ohio and Iowa (Republicans the both of them) set that at naught. If, however, Georgia were outside the Union, the jus gentium would apply and Georgia would have the protections of international law to protect her against further outrages from citizens of Ohio or Iowa.

If "the real catalyst," the sole and exclusive cause was slavery (which Abraham Lincoln took pains to assure his audience in his first inaugural he had neither the intention or power to threaten), then Georgia would have said simply, "Lincoln is threatening our right to own slaves" and left it at that. QED.

DeKalb County is not setting the record straight, it is twisting history for political purposes. This is not a new tactic (see 1984 and the entire history of communism), but it is disreputable.
 
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Tidewater

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I posted this in the D-Day thread but it is applicable here.
I visited the monument to the men of Easy Company, 2-506th PIR today in the Belgian village of Foy. Someone had taken a crowbar or a pickaxe to the monument.
19 Damage to the Easy Co Mon Foy.jpg
20 Damage to the Easy Co Mon Foy.jpg
There is no indication whether this was a simple act of vandalism or was the work of a SJW expressing his outrage at something he perceived as a failing in the men of Easy Company. (They were all white, all male, fought for a country that tolerated Jim Crow, who knows?)
This is why looking for something from history you can disapprove of and pouring your outrage into a monument to men of that age is so problematic. If that is how we are going to look at monuments, then we will never have any monument to any person.
 

Jon

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I posted this in the D-Day thread but it is applicable here.
I visited the monument to the men of Easy Company, 2-506th PIR today in the Belgian village of Foy. Someone had taken a crowbar or a pickaxe to the monument.
View attachment 4433
View attachment 4434
There is no indication whether this was a simple act of vandalism or was the work of a SJW expressing his outrage at something he perceived as a failing in the men of Easy Company. (They were all white, all male, fought for a country that tolerated Jim Crow, who knows?)
This is why looking for something from history you can disapprove of and pouring your outrage into a monument to men of that age is so problematic. If that is how we are going to look at monuments, then we will never have any monument to any person.

you really want to equate the men that liberated Europe and ended the hell of the Holocaust with a Confederate Army fighting to be able to keep Human Beings as property?

Maybe some deluded sjw did this but very, very few would hold an opinion that would equate those two army's
 

Tidewater

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you really want to equate the men that liberated Europe and ended the hell of the Holocaust with a Confederate Army fighting to be able to keep Human Beings as property?
It is not me that is equating the two. If in fact it was a SJW feeling some sense of outrage, it was the person who attacked the monument. I am not terribly impressed with the rigor of SJW thinking on most issues. Of course, it could have just been a vandal attacking something respected by society's conventions. That part of Belgium does not strike me as being as angst-ridden as, so, suburban Washington, DC. Kids in that area who really want to express their outrage using do so by dying their hair blue.
Or, it could have been a Belgian whose girlfriend was stolen by an American.
Maybe some deluded sjw did this but very, very few would hold an opinion that would equate those two army's
Which is why I showed the vandalization of the RAF Bomber Command monument in London. Obviously some people feel such outrage at RAF Bomber Command that they feel justified in defacing their monument.
 
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Jon

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It is not me that is equating the two. If in fact it was a SJW feeling some sense of outrage, it was the person who attacked the monument. I am not terribly impressed with the rigor of SJW thinking on most issues. Of course, it could have just been a vandal attacking something respected by society's conventions. That part of Belgium does not strike me as being as angst-ridden as, so, suburban Washington, DC. Kids in that area who really want to express their outrage using do so by dying their hair blue.
Or, it could have been a Belgian whose girlfriend was stolen by an American.

Which is why I showed the vandalization of the RAF Bomber Command monument in London. Obviously some people feel such outrage at RAF Bomber Command that they feel justified in defacing their monument.
outside of any understanding of why the monument was defaced it is 100% you

and there is no comparison between a liberating Army and a band of traitors fighting to keep people as subjugated property, also considering how the Reich kept and used slave labor if anything The CSoA is more like Nazi Germany in that regard. Recall that in both wars, the good guys won
 

81usaf92

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Im just wondering why we are so stuck on the Confederacy? Its like History started in 1861 and ended on June 30th, 1863. We hear very little from the Spanish-Americans about how great the conquistadors were, very little from the British about how great the colonists were to the indians, and very little credit of human decency is ever given to the Indian Killers of the Federal Army. But yet we are so stuck on how great these Traitor Slavers are....
 
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Tidewater

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outside of any understanding of why the monument was defaced it is 100% you

and there is no comparison between a liberating Army and a band of traitors fighting to keep people as subjugated property, also considering how the Reich kept and used slave labor if anything The CSoA is more like Nazi Germany in that regard. Recall that in both wars, the good guys won
And yet, the Easy Company monument was defaced.
And so was the RAF Bomber Command monument. Four times.
Maybe the two are unrelated. Maybe the person who defaced the Easy Company memorial was simply a vandal.
Look, there is nothing anybody can say to you to cause you to challenge your preconceptions (and frankly, you do not even know enough about the topic to hold up your end of an argument). On this topic, your mind is closed, tighter than a trap.

Can we agree that defacing veterans' monuments is probably not cool?
 

Jon

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And yet, the Easy Company monument was defaced.
And so was the RAF Bomber Command monument. Four times.
Maybe the two are unrelated. Maybe the person who defaced the Easy Company memorial was simply a vandal.
Look, there is nothing anybody can say to you to cause you to challenge your preconceptions (and frankly, you do not even know enough about the topic to hold up your end of an argument). On this topic, your mind is closed, tighter than a trap.

Can we agree that defacing veterans' monuments is probably not cool?
that's funny, my mind closed and yet nothing sways you from your Lost Cause

yes, I would agree that defacing a veterans monument is not cool
 

Jon

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Im just wondering why we are so stuck on the Confederacy? Its like History started in 1861 and ended on June 30th, 1863. We hear very little from the Spanish-Americans about how great the conquistadors were, very little from the British about how great the colonists were to the indians, and very little credit of human decency is ever given to the Indian Killers of the Federal Army. But yet we are so stuck on how great these Traitor Slavers are....
Because the campaign of Lost Cause propaganda has tied the very identity of Southerners to the CSA.
 

Tidewater

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Im just wondering why we are so stuck on the Confederacy? Its like History started in 1861 and ended on June 30th, 1863. We hear very little from the Spanish-Americans about how great the conquistadors were, very little from the British about how great the colonists were to the indians, and very little credit of human decency is ever given to the Indian Killers of the Federal Army. But yet we are so stuck on how great these Traitor Slavers are....
35% of Alabama families were slaveholding. The Alabama Convention voted 61-39 in favor of immediate unilateral secession, so if every nonslaveholding family voted against secession, it would not have passed, so many nonslaveholders in Alabama nevertheless supported leaving the Union. And we know that some slaveholding families in Alabama (for example Earle’s GG grandfather) fought for the Union.
100% of Alabama families had their state government overthrown, their Congressional delegations declined seats in Congress when the war was over, and most were denied the vote when Alabama drafted its post-war state constitution. That tends to grate on people.
Alabama was the third southern state in number of casualties (after Virginia and North Carolina). These facts probably explain why Alabamians were so “stuck” on the war.

You presumably took an oath to the Constitution of the United States during your time in the Air Force. Which provision of the U.S. Constitution delegates to the federal government the power to overthrow an elected republican state government? Does the federal government still have that power? What do you do when you receive an order that violates the Constitution?

I suspect you will not answer the questions. I just asked so the members of the board could see that you declined to answer the questions.
 

TIDE-HSV

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35% of Alabama families were slaveholding. The Alabama Convention voted 61-39 in favor of immediate unilateral secession, so if every nonslaveholding family voted against secession, it would not have passed, so many nonslaveholders in Alabama nevertheless supported leaving the Union. And we know that some slaveholding families in Alabama (for example Earle’s GG grandfather) fought for the Union.
100% of Alabama families had their state government overthrown, their Congressional delegations declined seats in Congress when the war was over, and most were denied the vote when Alabama drafted its post-war state constitution. That tends to grate on people.
Alabama was the third southern state in number of casualties (after Virginia and North Carolina). These facts probably explain why Alabamians were so “stuck” on the war.

You presumably took an oath to the Constitution of the United States during your time in the Air Force. Which provision of the U.S. Constitution delegates to the federal government the power to overthrow an elected republican state government? Does the federal government still have that power? What do you do when you receive an order that violates the Constitution?

I suspect you will not answer the questions. I just asked so the members of the board could see that you declined to answer the questions.
Actually, it was only my great-grandfather. One other GGF was rabid about the Union, was a member of the Union League, had all of his property confiscated by the confederate State of Alabama and yet owned eight slaves, so, it's not so clear-cut. My father was born in 1895 and my grandfather Self in 1860. My great-grandparents Self were born in the 1820s in a Cherokee village in NE Alabama...
 

81usaf92

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I suspect you will not answer the questions. I just asked so the members of the board could see that you declined to answer the questions.
Im down to play a little....


35% of Alabama families were slaveholding. The Alabama Convention voted 61-39 in favor of immediate unilateral secession, so if every nonslaveholding family voted against secession, it would not have passed, so many nonslaveholders in Alabama nevertheless supported leaving the Union. And we know that some slaveholding families in Alabama (for example Earle’s GG grandfather) fought for the Union.

Okay 2 things. 1) Many in North Alabama fought for the Union because they believed in Andrew Jackson's beliefs about the Union and 2) Again you are missing the point of the old saying "Rich Man's war, Poor man's fight"


I don't see how anyone with a straight face can say that Slavery wasnt the main political reason that Alabama seceded from the Union. If you can, then present it. Otherwise I firmly believe the CSA were slavers fighting the federal government.

If your whole point is that the troops fighting had weren't fighting on the issues of slavery then okay, but its like trying to defend Germans for fighting with the Nazis. Sure false pretenses, nationalism, certain circumstances, states rights, and etc play a part of an individuals belief. But at the end of the day the Army of Northern Virginia and the Wehrmact were armies fighting for evil regimes, and the world is a better place because both armies were defeated. Point is the Big picture is that the Civil War was a war that revolved around the institution of slavery because the political entities in power have universally cited it as the main and/or contributing reason of secession.











You presumably took an oath to the Constitution of the United States during your time in the Air Force. Which provision of the U.S. Constitution delegates to the federal government the power to overthrow an elected republican state government? Does the federal government still have that power? What do you do when you receive an order that violates the Constitution?


.

This one:


I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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My point was that of two GGFs (don't know about the other two), one fought for the union and owned no slaves. One belonged to the Union League, owned slaves and lost everything. You can't say either fought for slavery. They obviously didn't. They fought for the Union. I'll dig up my GGF who was a Union League's diary from 1867. It's quite obvious what he was losing everything for...
 

81usaf92

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My point was that of two GGFs (don't know about the other two), one fought for the union and owned no slaves. One belonged to the Union League, owned slaves and lost everything. You can't say either fought for slavery. They obviously didn't. They fought for the Union. I'll dig up my GGF who was a Union League's diary from 1867. It's quite obvious what he was losing everything for...
I don't think any of us are questioning individual reasons, we are talking big picture. The CSA clearly seceded due to institution of slavery being at risk. Many soldiers have gone to war for many different reasons all over history that don't line up with the controlling power's ideology. Many Germans didn't go to war for the Nazi ideology, but does that mean we should be putting up Nazi statues in Germany.

Normalizing by revision and misdirection a past immoral and evil regime is a very dangerous road to go down
 
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Crimson1967

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I don't think any of us are questioning individual reasons, we are talking big picture. The CSA clearly seceded due to institution of slavery being at risk. Many soldiers have gone to war for many different reasons all over history that don't line up with the controlling power's ideology. Many Germans didn't go to war for the Nazi ideology, but does that mean we should be putting up Nazi statues in Germany.

Normalizing by revision and misdirection a past immoral and evil regime is a very dangerous road to go down
On December 21 we play basketball in an arena named for a Nazi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

81usaf92

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On December 21 we play basketball in an arena named for a Nazi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Does it really surprise you when this state is rabid with Lost Cause revisionists and Trump supporters? While Braun’s true allegiance to the Nazi party has always been a question, you can’t tell me Huntsville couldn’t come up with a better person to name the arena after.
 

92tide

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Does it really surprise you when this state is rabid with Lost Cause revisionists and Trump supporters? While Braun’s true allegiance to the Nazi party has always been a question, you can’t tell me Huntsville couldn’t come up with a better person to name the arena after.
the free state of winston gave twitler the highest percentage of votes of any alabama county in 2016 - 89.48%

on google street view, you can see the confederate flag flying at free state lumber. i guess the english/lit department at haleyville high stopped covering irony
 

TIDE-HSV

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I don't think any of us are questioning individual reasons, we are talking big picture. The CSA clearly seceded due to institution of slavery being at risk. Many soldiers have gone to war for many different reasons all over history that don't line up with the controlling power's ideology. Many Germans didn't go to war for the Nazi ideology, but does that mean we should be putting up Nazi statues in Germany.

Normalizing by revision and misdirection a past immoral and evil regime is a very dangerous road to go down
The big picture is that there isn't one. Extreme north Alabama and eastern Tennessee put as many soldiers in the Union Army as in gray. NC voted in an anti-secession government during the war. My family wasn't atypical at all...
 

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