Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down - Page 19
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  1. #235
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    The big picture is that there isn't one. Extreme north Alabama and eastern Tennessee put as many soldiers in the Union Army as in gray. NC voted in an anti-secession government during the war. My family wasn't atypical at all...
    You got me curious.
    Alabama gave 2,578 white Union troops during the war.

  2. #236
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    that's funny, my mind closed and yet nothing sways you from your Lost Cause
    My mind is open to evidence and argumentation. Seriously. Present some evidence.
    yes, I would agree that defacing a veterans monument is not cool
    Thanks for that. We agree on one thing, at least.
    Last edited by Tidewater; September 26th, 2019 at 05:04 PM.

  3. #237
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    Im down to play a little....
    Cool.


    Okay 2 things. 1) Many in North Alabama fought for the Union because they believed in Andrew Jackson's beliefs about the Union and
    True. They also were tied to trade (the two most prolific north Alabama commodities were mules and corn) facilitated by the Tennessee River, which flowed south into Alabama from Tennessee and then flowed back north to Tennessee. Secession placed a tariff barrier between north Alabama farmers and their Tennessee and Kentucky customers.
    2) Again you are missing the point of the old saying "Rich Man's war, Poor man's fight"
    I'm not really sure what your point is here. Plenty of poor men voted to leave the Union.And plenty of rich men served in the army.
    I don't see how anyone with a straight face can say that Slavery wasnt the main political reason that Alabama seceded from the Union.
    I do not believe many Republicans were advocating abolition in 1860. Certainly Lincoln wasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln's First Inaugural Address
    I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
    If you can, then present it.
    Since you asked.
    Republican senators Henry Wilson of Massachusetts and William Seward (Republican front-runner for president in 1860) knew about John Brown's plans to commit an act of terror at Harper's Ferry 17 months before it happened, yet they told no one. Seward did not object to the plan, he only “expressed regret that he had been told.” (New York Herald, October 27, 1859).
    Barclay Coppoc, one of John Brown's raiders, escaped from Harper's Ferry in October 1859. His brother Edwin was captured and gave his brother up, telling his captors that Barclay was probably back home in Iowa. When Virginia asked for his arrest and extradition to Virginia for trial for murder, treason and insurrection, the Republican governor of Iowa refused, and even sent a messenger to Coppoc warning his that Virginia was seeking his arrest and extradition. The Staunton (Va.) Vindicator condemned Kirkwood’s entire handling of this case. “The conduct of the Governor of Iowa … is remarkable for its duplicity, and shows to us of the South, what we have to expect from northern officials, elevated to power by the sectional party of the day.” (Staunton, Va. Vindicator, February 17, 1860.) In other words, this is what a Republican in executive office means: Republicans will use their office to protect from prosecution criminals as long as they are antislavery criminals, which does not bode well for states with lots a slaves, whoever owns them.
    The very next week, the Alabama legislature issued a declaration. "anti-slavery agitation persistently continued in the non-slaveholding States of this Union, for more than a third of a century, marked at every stage of its progress by contempt for the obligations of law and the sanctity of compacts [such as the provision of the return of fugitives from justice who have escaped into neighboring states of the Union], evincing a deadly hostility to the rights and institutions of the Southern people, and a settled purpose to effect their overthrow even by the subversion of the Constitution, and at the hazard of violence and bloodshed." (Smith, History and Debates of the Convention of the People of Alabama, p. 9). Alabama did not issue secession declaration in January 1861, but it did lay out its grievances in February 1860.

    Otherwise I firmly believe the CSA were slavers fighting the federal government."

    If your whole point is that the troops fighting had weren't fighting on the issues of slavery then okay, but its like trying to defend Germans for fighting with the Nazis. Sure false pretenses, nationalism, certain circumstances, states rights, and etc play a part of an individuals belief. But at the end of the day the Army of Northern Virginia and the Wehrmact were armies fighting for evil regimes, and the world is a better place because both armies were defeated. Point is the Big picture is that the Civil War was a war that revolved around the institution of slavery because the political entities in power have universally cited it as the main and/or contributing reason of secession.



    This one:
    Article IV of the same Constitution says that Congress shall guarantee to each state of the Union a republican form of government. If Trump declared that California was a bunch of traitors and sent the army to overthrow the state government by force would you be okay with that?

    That was the proximate cause of Virginia's withdrawal from the Union. Virginia said that was unconstitutional, antidemocratic and they would not take part in such an act.
    Last edited by Tidewater; September 26th, 2019 at 04:15 PM.

  4. #238
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    My point was that of two GGFs (don't know about the other two), one fought for the union and owned no slaves. One belonged to the Union League, owned slaves and lost everything. You can't say either fought for slavery. They obviously didn't. They fought for the Union. I'll dig up my GGF who was a Union League's diary from 1867. It's quite obvious what he was losing everything for...
    I think that would be very interesting. I'd love to read that.

  5. #239
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    the free state of winston gave twitler the highest percentage of votes of any alabama county in 2016 - 89.48%

    on google street view, you can see the confederate flag flying at free state lumber. i guess the english/lit department at haleyville high stopped covering irony
    I'm not laughing at your native county, but that is funny. "Free State Lumber" with a Confederate flag in front of it? Rich.

  6. #240
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I'm not laughing at your native county, but that is funny. "Free State Lumber" with a Confederate flag in front of it? Rich.
    actually, my native county is dallas county, tx., but dbf won't let me claim my native status. i was a big city carpetbagger when i moved to winston in the middle of my first grade year.

    i laughed my ass off at it when driving by the first time, i had to do a double take to make sure i had seen it correctly. i was surprised that it was on the street view.
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  7. #241
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    actually, my native county is dallas county, tx., but dbf won't let me claim my native status. i was a big city carpetbagger when i moved to winston in the middle of my first grade year.

    i laughed my ass off at it when driving by the first time, i had to do a double take to make sure i had seen it correctly. i was surprised that it was on the street view.
    There was a lot of remaking of history in north Alabama during Reconstruction. It was the prudent thing to do...
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  8. #242
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    There was a lot of remaking of history in north Alabama during Reconstruction. It was the prudent thing to do...
    there are a lot more confederate flags flying now than there were when i grew up there.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  9. #243
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post


    I'm not really sure what your point is here. Plenty of poor men voted to leave the Union.And plenty of rich men served in the army.

    .
    That wasn't the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post






    I do not believe many Republicans were advocating abolition in 1860. Certainly Lincoln wasn't.






    Then tell me the Southern fairytale reasons of why South Carolina decided to fire on Ft Sumter, while I use primary sources.

    If the Republican party with its platform of principles, the main feature of which is the abolition of slavery and, therefore, the destruction of the South, carries the country at the next Presidential election, shall we remain in the Union, or form a separate Confederacy? This is the great, grave issue. It is not who shall be President, it is not which party shall rule – it is a question of political and social existence.— Alfred P. Aldrich
    The anti-slavery party contends that slavery is wrong in itself, and the Government is a consolidated national democracy. We of the South contend that slavery is right...— Laurence Massillon Keitt, Speech to the House, (January 1860)
    Our people have come to this on the question of slavery.— Laurence Massillon Keitt, South Carolina secession debates, (December 1860)
    I could go on, but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post










    Since you asked.

    Republican senators Henry Wilson of Massachusetts and William
    Seward (Republican front-runner for president in 1860) knew about John Brown's
    plans to commit an act of terror at Harper's Ferry 17 months before it
    happened, yet they told no one. Seward did not object to the plan, he only
    “expressed regret that he had been told.” (New York Herald, October 27, 1859).

    Barclay Coppoc, one of John Brown's raiders, escaped from
    Harper's Ferry in October 1859. His brother Edwin was captured and gave his
    brother up, telling his captors that Barclay was probably back home in Iowa.
    When Virginia asked for his arrest and extradition to Virginia for trial for
    murder, treason and insurrection, the Republican governor of Iowa refused, and
    even sent a messenger to Coppoc warning his that Virginia was seeking his
    arrest and extradition. The
    Staunton (Va.) Vindicator
    condemned Kirkwood’s entire
    handling of this case. “The conduct of the Governor of Iowa … is remarkable for
    its duplicity, and shows to us of the South, what we have to expect from
    northern officials, elevated to power by the sectional party of the day.” (Staunton, Va. Vindicator, February 17, 1860.) In other words, this is what a
    Republican in executive office means: Republicans will use their office to
    protect from prosecution criminals as long as they are antislavery criminals,
    which does not bode well for states with lots a slaves, whoever owns them.

    The very next week, the Alabama legislature issued a
    declaration. "anti-slavery agitation persistently continued in the
    non-slaveholding States of this Union, for more than a third of a century,
    marked at every stage of its progress by contempt for the obligations of law
    and the sanctity of compacts [such as the provision of the return of fugitives
    from justice who have escaped into neighboring states of the Union], evincing a
    deadly hostility to the rights and institutions of the Southern people, and a
    settled purpose to effect their overthrow even by the subversion of the
    Constitution, and at the hazard of violence and bloodshed." (Smith, History and Debates of the
    Convention of the People of Alabama
    , p. 9). Alabama did not
    issue secession declaration in January 1861, but it did lay out its grievances
    in February 1860.







    .
    John Brown must be a hero of yours because everytime someone brings up a confederate constitution or what Alexander Stephens said for the reasons to secede from the United States, the "Union knew about John Brown" deflection comes up every single time. How does any of it disprove that the political driving force behind the CSA was the institution of slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Article IV of the same Constitution says that
    Congress shall guarantee to each state of the Union a republican form of
    government. If Trump declared that California was a bunch of traitors and sent
    the army to overthrow the state government by force would you be okay with that?




    That was the proximate cause of Virginia's withdrawal from
    the Union. Virginia said that was unconstitutional, antidemocratic and they
    would not take part in such an act.


    To preserve the Union... Yes. To stroke an ego... NO. The State of Virginia didn't beat the British, nor did the State of South Carolina, New York, and the other 13. They beat them together, and established the country we know today. Just because the South couldn't accept times were changing, doesn't mean they were right in raising arms against the United States.
    Even Lee recognized that he was in the end a TRAITOR.


    Lincoln was justifiable in sending troops to suppress a rebellion that Bucchanan let get way out of hand because South Carolina didn't like the election result. Even your State's most famous son did it twice, but I guess its different when its a Virginian doing it than log house Kentucky-Illinois transplant doing it.




    Last edited by 81usaf92; September 26th, 2019 at 05:52 PM.
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