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  1. #53
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    that is because the whole point of the lost cause narrative is to try to glorify the confederacy and pretend it had nothing to do with slavery and racism. a lot of folks have fallen for it.
    Granted. None of the Union monuments I have examined mentioned anything anti-democratic (or unconstitutional) about refusing to respect voters' wishes to leave the Union and then overthrowing elected state governments and replacing them with military governments. Robert Penn Warren called the northern counterpart to the Lost Cause the North's "Treasury of Virtue."
    Northerners at the time and since have been extremely reluctant to discuss how anti-democratic the Union cause was, or its questionable constitutionality.
    The northern/consolidationist idea that "it was about nothing but slavery"* is as unsupportable as the southern "it had nothing to do with slavery" argument.


    * If you can't trust a left-wing party hack to give you simplistic historical truth about complex events, who can you trust?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Begala
    The Civil War was fought over slavery
    The Civil War was fought over slavery
    The Civil War was fought over slavery.
    This will be on the test.
    Last edited by Tidewater; December 26th, 2017 at 12:06 PM.

  2. #54
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Here's why this is a problem.
    Ivanka Trump posted on Twitter a photo of her husband hugging her son on the back of a small fishing boat. In the background is a US flag and a <gasp> Confederate flag. Not on the boat they're on, mind you. It is just in the background on some fishing hut apparently they happened to be sailing past when the photo was snapped.
    The Twitterverse is outraged.

    "I get to misinterpret what you are saying, be outraged by my misinterpretation, and, because of my outrage, shout down anything you are saying. What you actually "said" and your intentions don't enter into it."

    There are plenty of things to criticize Kushner over. This is simply not one of them.
    Last edited by Tidewater; January 1st, 2018 at 01:01 PM.

  3. #55

    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Not to rehash, as this has been discussed for a long time here, but I figured I'd take one more shot at explaining why I think Memphis did the right thing here.

    First, I get it - I don't believe the Civil War was fought about just slavery, but that it was one of the issues rolled into the big argument regarding State's rights under the 10th Amendment. I also don't believe that all who fought for the South thought slavery was okay, nor do I consider Lincoln a hero. Many here have forgotten more about the Civil War than I'll ever know, but I'm not ignorant about it.

    So bear with me here - keep in mind I'm not directly comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, but there are parallels here that make sense.

    The reality is WWII has long been my favorite study in war due to several issues: the scale of the war was enormous, the fascination with how the people of Germany could be led down the path hey were, and the nearly perfect divide of good vs evil. None of these are what I wish to discuss, per se, just explaining how this becomes my touch point for relation.

    There were many Nazi party members in Germany who were good people - people who didn't support the extermination of the jewish people, the Poles, the Gypsies, etc. Just as the party itself wasn't our, unadulterated evil, its policies weren't either - in some cases they were downright progressive, even by today's standards.

    Note - I'm not defending Naziism - I'm simply pointing out that even they weren't PURE evil. There were good and bad - while their policies led to absolute horror, there were some good people in the party. But no one would want to congratulate them or shake their hand for being a good person in a sea of evil - they were still part of the horror of Nazism.

    Likewise, a black person in Memphis doesn't care - nor should we insist they care - about someone who was a good person but chose to be a part of a group that believed slavery was okay, was one of the rights they fought for. Yes, it's guilt by association, but that's how it works in the real world.

    So while people can claim it's a slippery slope - I don't really care. Just as I wouldn't expect a Jewish person to be okay with statues of 'good' Nazis, I don't expect my fellow Memphians to be okay with statues of men who chose to be a part of a group fighting to preserve slavery.

    Again, I'm not saying the Confederacy was evil, nor am I comparing them to Nazis - I'm simply making there point that there was at least one aspect of their fight that was wrong, and making excuses for it just doesn't cut it for me.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  4. #56
    BamaNation All-American Intl.Aperture's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Should we all just collaborate and copy and paste our responses in order from the last Confederate Monuments thread or what?
    “And what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man.”
    - Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

  5. #57
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Not to rehash, as this has been discussed for a long time here, but I figured I'd take one more shot at explaining why I think Memphis did the right thing here.

    First, I get it - I don't believe the Civil War was fought about just slavery, but that it was one of the issues rolled into the big argument regarding State's rights under the 10th Amendment. I also don't believe that all who fought for the South thought slavery was okay, nor do I consider Lincoln a hero. Many here have forgotten more about the Civil War than I'll ever know, but I'm not ignorant about it.

    So bear with me here - keep in mind I'm not directly comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, but there are parallels here that make sense.

    ...
    So while people can claim it's a slippery slope - I don't really care. Just as I wouldn't expect a Jewish person to be okay with statues of 'good' Nazis, I don't expect my fellow Memphians to be okay with statues of men who chose to be a part of a group fighting to preserve slavery.

    Again, I'm not saying the Confederacy was evil, nor am I comparing them to Nazis - I'm simply making there point that there was at least one aspect of their fight that was wrong, and making excuses for it just doesn't cut it for me.
    Every German town and village has a monument of some kind to young men from that town that died in the wars of 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. No swastikas. Just names of dead young men from the town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Franklin Towne
    When such young men fall in a cause in which they believe, whether it is intrinsically right or wrong, one may realize the sadness of cutting off a life so full of promise, yet all … will accord them the tribute of sincere respect and admiration.
    Captain Franklin Towne, Union veteran ca. 1866.

    This guy probably wasn't a slaveholder.

    Neither was this kid.

    They were fighting because their state told them to.
    Their names were lost, so the only memorial they get is in their county courthouse.
    And many southerners opposed secession, but supported their state government anyway. N. B. Forrest was one of them.

    I guess this issue gets tied up in Americans' love of the underdog (which I understand) , that and an attempt to make up for the evils of slavery (which is commendable). Unfortunately, all those who suffered from slavery have passed on. Their descendants alive today are suffering from something besides slavery. Attempts to pin that on the states that voted to leave the Union are misplaced. I guess today people try to pour into things Confederate all the anger they feel for almost everything that disappoints them. The KKK, black disfranchisement, Jim Crow and segregation all happened under the U.S. flag.

    As I said before two problems.
    1. If you dishonor soldiers who died pursuant to the orders of the government, one day, the government will not find defenders when it needs them most.
    2. Those in a hurry to take down monuments saying they are monuments to slavery and racism should at least furnish us with the inscriptions or the texts of the speeches given at their dedication indicating that is why they went up in the first place. If they cannot, then it shows lazy and sloppy thinking. And, in the future, this sloppiness will be used in other ways. "World War II monuments are dedicated to defenders of a government that engaged in Japanese internment" or the Andrew Jackson monument in Jackson Square New Orleans has to come down because it is dedicated to the organizer of the Trail of Tears. At one point in the future, we will have monuments only to perfect people who defended perfect governments. And future governments may have difficulty finding people to come forward to defend them.

  6. #58
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Crimson1967's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Intl.Aperture View Post
    Should we all just collaborate and copy and paste our responses in order from the last Confederate Monuments thread or what?
    We could just have about six megathreads as we seem to rehash the same topics over and over.


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  7. #59
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Chukker Veteran's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    that is because the whole point of the lost cause narrative is to try to glorify the confederacy and pretend it had nothing to do with slavery and racism. a lot of folks have fallen for it.
    The Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, and even if it did, our Confederate heroes were real nice to their slaves! Mean ol' Yankees made those poor slaves get out and look for work when they could have been content picking cotton and watching their owners selling off their families to the best bidder.
    Imagine some snowflake taking offense over that.

  8. #60
    BamaNation First Team TNElephantitis's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Not to rehash, as this has been discussed for a long time here, but I figured I'd take one more shot at explaining why I think Memphis did the right thing here.

    First, I get it - I don't believe the Civil War was fought about just slavery, but that it was one of the issues rolled into the big argument regarding State's rights under the 10th Amendment. I also don't believe that all who fought for the South thought slavery was okay, nor do I consider Lincoln a hero. Many here have forgotten more about the Civil War than I'll ever know, but I'm not ignorant about it.

    So bear with me here - keep in mind I'm not directly comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, but there are parallels here that make sense.

    The reality is WWII has long been my favorite study in war due to several issues: the scale of the war was enormous, the fascination with how the people of Germany could be led down the path hey were, and the nearly perfect divide of good vs evil. None of these are what I wish to discuss, per se, just explaining how this becomes my touch point for relation.

    There were many Nazi party members in Germany who were good people - people who didn't support the extermination of the jewish people, the Poles, the Gypsies, etc. Just as the party itself wasn't our, unadulterated evil, its policies weren't either - in some cases they were downright progressive, even by today's standards.

    Note - I'm not defending Naziism - I'm simply pointing out that even they weren't PURE evil. There were good and bad - while their policies led to absolute horror, there were some good people in the party. But no one would want to congratulate them or shake their hand for being a good person in a sea of evil - they were still part of the horror of Nazism.

    Likewise, a black person in Memphis doesn't care - nor should we insist they care - about someone who was a good person but chose to be a part of a group that believed slavery was okay, was one of the rights they fought for. Yes, it's guilt by association, but that's how it works in the real world.

    So while people can claim it's a slippery slope - I don't really care. Just as I wouldn't expect a Jewish person to be okay with statues of 'good' Nazis, I don't expect my fellow Memphians to be okay with statues of men who chose to be a part of a group fighting to preserve slavery.

    Again, I'm not saying the Confederacy was evil, nor am I comparing them to Nazis - I'm simply making there point that there was at least one aspect of their fight that was wrong, and making excuses for it just doesn't cut it for me.
    Speaking as a black woman who born and raised in Alabama but has lived in Memphis for 19 years, I agree with you 100 percent

  9. #61
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Crimson1967's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    I would love for a German to move here and fly a Nazi flag to honor his family members who fought in WWII, even though they never killed any Jews.

    I bet he’d get plenty of support from the “it’s my heritage” crowd.


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  10. #62
    BamaNation Hall of Fame MattinBama's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson1967 View Post
    I bet he’d get plenty of support from the “it’s my heritage” crowd.
    Now a days they might even throw him a Tiki Torch Parade.

  11. #63
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by MattinBama View Post
    Now a days they might even throw him a Tiki Torch Parade.
    hell, he would be a regular commentator on fox news
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  12. #64
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by TNElephantitis View Post
    Speaking as a black woman who born and raised in Alabama but has lived in Memphis for 19 years, I agree with you 100 percent
    Ma'am, I will never be able to walk a mile in your shoes.

    Since I gather you and I are going to have different perspectives on the matter, and i appreciate thoughts of people with different perspectives than my own, I wonder if you might let me know what you make of Forrest's speech to an African-American fraternal organization in Memphis in 1875.

  13. #65
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Here is an interesting and related development.
    Ivan Konev, a Soviet general from World War II was the general most responsible for liberating Czechoslovakia from Nazi occupation.
    On the other hand, Konev was also the Soviet general who crushed the Hungarian resistance in 1956 and helped organize the crushing of the Czechoslovaks in 1968.
    Needless to say, the Czechs have a nuanced perspective on Konev and plan on placing interpretive plaques on Konev's statue explaining the good and the bad Konev did.
    The Russians are not pleased.

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