Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down - Page 7
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  1. #79
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    great disenfranchisements? and here, i thought i had heard all of the lost cause spin.
    You're welcome. I made that up myself.
    I am not sure what else you would call it. People voting in 1860 and the federal government stepping in to prevent by force the adoption of the policy they voted for would amount to disfranchisement. About a million southern voters were disfranchised that way. Post-war voters electing congressmen, and then the dominant northern party declining to seat those elected would amount to disfranchisement as well. To tell citizens outright that they cannot even cast a ballot is the next logical step, which was adopted in the later 1860s.
    Later, white southerners telling freedmen that they cannot vote was reprehensible, but not unprecedented.

  2. #80
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    You're welcome. I made that up myself.
    I am not sure what else you would call it. People voting in 1860 and the federal government stepping in to prevent by force the adoption of the policy they voted for would amount to disfranchisement. About a million southern voters were disfranchised that way. Post-war voters electing congressmen, and then the dominant northern party declining to seat those elected would amount to disfranchisement as well. To tell citizens outright that they cannot even cast a ballot is the next logical step, which was adopted in the later 1860s.
    Later, white southerners telling freedmen that they cannot vote was reprehensible, but not unprecedented.
    it's got a nice ring to it. i guess the term could also be used for the millions of slaves that lived and died in the u.s. and all of the black folks who suffered under jim crow and the after effects.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  3. #81
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Crimson1967's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    I must say this is the most civil disagreement of such a volatile issue I have ever read.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #82
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I would be interested to hear your views on which provision of the US Constitution empowers the federal government to overthrow an elected state government and replace it with an appointed military governor. Or whether such an action would be genuinely democratic. That is the ugly flip side of the Union position, one the believers in the Treasury of Virtue dare not discuss.
    Maybe some of the writers were too busy boinking their slaves to include any constitutional provisions for that? (not sure if that should be in blue or not)

  5. #83
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by AUDub View Post
    Supposedly even *gasp* kissed the cheek of the young lady - the daughter of one of the Pole-Bearers - that presented him a bouquet at the event.

    Forrest was a very interesting figure. Very polarizing. Too many make the mistake of either accepting the hagiography associated with him or outright demonizing him, erecting a bastardized saint or demon rather than who the man actually was (or who he became later in life), as is the case with a lot of the names we’re familiar with from the time.

    I still wouldn’t want a statue of him.
    A while back on a related issue, you had referred to the SPLC's much-cited report that the erection of Confederate monuments was correlated with black disfranchisement.
    I found something that might be of interest: a control group. Union veterans' monuments from the same period.

    Today there are, for example, approximately 280 Civil War monuments in New York State, 269 in Ohio, and 124 in Connecticut – states that experienced no significant military actions. ... White northerners erected more soldier monuments in cemeteries and public spaces in the 1860s and 1870s than did white southerners [Tidewater comment: the South had been crushed economically and was still recovering]. But, as in the South, the high water mark of monument building was the period from the 1890s into the 1920s. Of the 120 monuments in Connecticut for which dedication dates are known, 47 were dedicated before 1890, and 73 after.
    I'll leave that link without further comment.

  6. #84
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamaro View Post
    Maybe some of the writers were too busy boinking their slaves to include any constitutional provisions for that? (not sure if that should be in blue or not)
    Perhaps. I would suggest you to read the proceedings of the state conventions that debated and ratified the Constitution.
    The complete transcripts are available for Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina. Fragments exist for Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Maryland. Rhode Island is here.
    Without exception, the Founders were very concerned about giving too much power to the federal (or as they said, general) government. Nobody suggested that, once ratified, the Constitution would give the federal government the power to overthrow an elected state government. If that had been stated, or even seriously implied, no state would have ratified. Advocates of ratification all agreed that the federal government would only be allowed to exercise power specifically enumerated in the Constitution, and nothing not so enumerated.
    The power to overthrow an elected state government is not enumerated, therefor it is prohibited. And Congress has an absolute duty to protect republican state governments from any such action.

  7. #85
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    it's got a nice ring to it. i guess the term could also be used for the millions of slaves that lived and died in the u.s. and all of the black folks who suffered under jim crow and the after effects.
    True. And for the tens of thousands of African-Americans in the non-seceding states that did not get to vote until the XV Amendment (except New England states which allowed their tiny black populations to vote before the war).
    Generally, since the founding of the republic, the trend had been ever-increasing voter enfranchisement. From property-owning white males in 1776, through ever-lower property-owning requirements to universal white male voting by 1860.
    The Great Disfranchisements I described were the first huge steps in the other direction when one million voters were struck from the roles.

  8. #86
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Perhaps. I would suggest you to read the proceedings of the state conventions that debated and ratified the Constitution.
    The complete transcripts are available for Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina. Fragments exist for Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Maryland. Rhode Island is here.
    Without exception, the Founders were very concerned about giving too much power to the federal (or as they said, general) government. Nobody suggested that, once ratified, the Constitution would give the federal government the power to overthrow an elected state government. If that had been stated, or even seriously implied, no state would have ratified. Advocates of ratification all agreed that the federal government would only be allowed to exercise power specifically enumerated in the Constitution, and nothing not so enumerated.
    The power to overthrow an elected state government is not enumerated, therefor it is prohibited. And Congress has an absolute duty to protect republican state governments from any such action.
    Maybe so but once in awhile the end justifies the means This was one of those rare occasions.

  9. #87
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    In Memphis, New historical marker to tell truth of Nathan Bedford Forrest, slave trade in Memphis
    One wonders whether the Forrest speech from 1876 (quoted above) will be included in the truth. I guess we'll see on April 4th.
    Which provision of the U.S. Constitution authorizes the Federal government to overthrow an elected state government and replace it with an appointed military governor?

  10. #88

    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    In Memphis, New historical marker to tell truth of Nathan Bedford Forrest, slave trade in Memphis
    One wonders whether the Forrest speech from 1876 (quoted above) will be included in the truth. I guess we'll see on April 4th.
    Doubtful it will. While it appears the man had a change of heart as he aged, that doesn't discount what he did.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  11. #89

    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    And for the record, despite the hand-wringing about this, there have been exactly zero riots. No need to avoid Memphis - it's a city that has a long history of abusing black people and is trying to make things right for the people who still today feel the reverberations of its ugly history.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  12. #90
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Doubtful it will. While it appears the man had a change of heart as he aged, that doesn't discount what he did.
    It is odd that the folks erecting the "Forrest was a slave trader" marker (which I have no problem with because it is true) in the interest of "telling the truth" cannot find space to include the speech in "the truth" about Forrest's attitudes in 1876. Heck, the black men who served with Forrest in the Confederate army (who knew him better than any erector of any 21st century marker) stayed with him throughout the war. There were probably a million opportunities to slip away during the campaigns, but 44 of 45 stayed. That makes me really curious as to why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest
    "I said to the 45 colored fellows on my plantation that I was going into the army; and if they would go with me, if we got whipped they would be free anyhow, and that if we succeeded and slavery was perpetuated, if they would act faithfully with me to the end of the war, I would set them free. 18 months before the war closed I was satisfied we were going to be defeated, and I gave those 45 or 44 of them their free papers for fear I would be killed.
    I get that the "Forrest as repentant slave trader" and "Forrest as a man worthy of the loyalty of his former slaves" narratives don't jive with the "Forrest as slave trader" and "Forrest as KKK leader" narratives, but, man, the real man appears so much more interesting than the cartoon book version that some folks peddle.

  13. #91

    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I get that the "Forrest as repentant slave trader" and "Forrest as a man worthy of the loyalty of his former slaves" narratives don't jive with the "Forrest as slave trader" and "Forrest as KKK leader" narratives, but, man, the real man appears so much more interesting than the cartoon book version that some folks peddle.
    They may well include them, but again, I doubt it. For over 100 years black people in Memphis has to look at this statue so honestly, I have zero issue with the new monument focusing on the negative things he did.

    Not comparing Forrest to Hitler, but I'm sure Hitler did some good things in his life in addition to the evil, yet no one cares about the good he might have done. Forrest literally traded other humans just as one would cattle, and if that stain is what he is remembered for, so be it.

    Ultimately, if someone is learning everything they know about him from a historical marker, they're not really interested in a lot of detail anyway. And if the people who have had to walk past a statue of a man that would have gladly profited from selling them and their families no longer has to see it, I'm 100% fine with that.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

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