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  1. #92
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    It is odd that the folks erecting the "Forrest was a slave trader" marker (which I have no problem with because it is true) in the interest of "telling the truth" cannot find space to include the speech in "the truth" about Forrest's attitudes in 1876. Heck, the black men who served with Forrest in the Confederate army (who knew him better than any erector of any 21st century marker) stayed with him throughout the war. There were probably a million opportunities to slip away during the campaigns, but 44 of 45 stayed. That makes me really curious as to why.

    I get that the "Forrest as repentant slave trader" and "Forrest as a man worthy of the loyalty of his former slaves" narratives don't jive with the "Forrest as slave trader" and "Forrest as KKK leader" narratives, but, man, the real man appears so much more interesting than the cartoon book version that some folks peddle.
    my initial guess would be it had something to do with the security/comfort of staying with the situation you know. but i'm sure that the decision making of someone who has been held in bondage their entire life would not make sense to many of us. so, i would hesitate to use the word "loyalty" to describe the intentions of those who stayed with him.
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  2. #93
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    my initial guess would be it had something to do with the security/comfort of staying with the situation you know. but i'm sure that the decision making of someone who has been held in bondage their entire life would not make sense to many of us. so, i would hesitate to use the word "loyalty" to describe the intentions of those who stayed with him.
    Maybe. But those guys had to have had a million chances to slip away with no consequences (Forrest was mostly a cavalry commander, so his campaigns tended to be strenuous and just keeping up with the main force required effort), yet they chose to stay to the end. Maybe that is not "loyalty," but it might be "honor," or sticking by your commitments, even when difficult. And that ain't nothing.

  3. #94
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    They may well include them, but again, I doubt it. For over 100 years black people in Memphis has to look at this statue so honestly, I have zero issue with the new monument focusing on the negative things he did.

    Not comparing Forrest to Hitler, but I'm sure Hitler did some good things in his life in addition to the evil, yet no one cares about the good he might have done. Forrest literally traded other humans just as one would cattle, and if that stain is what he is remembered for, so be it.

    Ultimately, if someone is learning everything they know about him from a historical marker, they're not really interested in a lot of detail anyway. And if the people who have had to walk past a statue of a man that would have gladly profited from selling them and their families no longer has to see it, I'm 100% fine with that.
    I get that. And I commend Memphis for dealing with this better than Charlottesville.
    That said, if you have a narrative ("Forrest was a slave trader," and "Forrest was a KKK leader") but the black men who knew him did not abandon him and he publicly declared in favor of a form of racial equality, maybe the dominant narrative being pushed today ought to be questioned a little bit.

  4. #95
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Maybe. But those guys had to have had a million chances to slip away with no consequences (Forrest was mostly a cavalry commander, so his campaigns tended to be strenuous and just keeping up with the main force required effort), yet they chose to stay to the end. Maybe that is not "loyalty," but it might be "honor," or sticking by your commitments, even when difficult. And that ain't nothing.
    i would imagine the fear of what would happen if you got caught trying to escape would also be a fairly strong motivation to stay.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  5. #96
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    i would imagine the fear of what would happen if you got caught trying to escape would also be a fairly strong motivation to stay.
    True, but my point is when Forrest's cavalry command is moving 40 miles a day through western Tennessee (as it did in December 1862-January 1863), a disaffected slave could just fall back a bit and slip off into the forrest on the side of the road until Forrest's cavalry had all passed and wait for Union forces to come along and "surrender."
    Forrest's men would have scant time to spare search the woods for attempted escapees. You just have to keep moving or get rolled up by pursuing Union cavalry.
    That would be escape without serious consequences. Yet these men opted not to pursue that course. That interests me.
    A Union officer serving in middle Tennessee in 1862 wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Parkhurst
    "The force is attacking my camp were the 1st Regiment of Texas Rangers, a battalion of the 1st Georgia Rangers… and quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops who are armed and equipped and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day."
    Official Records, Series I, Vol XVI, Pt. I, p. 805.
    That is just fascinating to me.

  6. #97
    BamaNation All-SEC danb's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    True, but my point is when Forrest's cavalry command is moving 40 miles a day through western Tennessee (as it did in December 1862-January 1863), a disaffected slave could just fall back a bit and slip off into the forrest on the side of the road until Forrest's cavalry had all passed and wait for Union forces to come along and "surrender."
    Forrest's men would have scant time to spare search the woods for attempted escapees. You just have to keep moving or get rolled up by pursuing Union cavalry.
    That would be escape without serious consequences. Yet these men opted not to pursue that course. That interests me.
    A Union officer serving in middle Tennessee in 1862 wrote:

    Official Records, Series I, Vol XVI, Pt. I, p. 805.
    That is just fascinating to me.
    True historical facts are a hard sell to most everyone that grew up listening to civil war history that our schools taught most everyone to believe. The victors write the history, and that dictates the modern mindset. Folks have a hard time relating to the ways of the world in the mid to late 1800ís, and judge men by todayís standard. Iím sure, 150 years from now we will be judged differently from our true intent.....I do appreciate your input of true actual history....


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  7. #98
    BamaNation Hall of Fame CharminTide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    They may well include them, but again, I doubt it. For over 100 years black people in Memphis has to look at this statue so honestly, I have zero issue with the new monument focusing on the negative things he did.

    Not comparing Forrest to Hitler, but I'm sure Hitler did some good things in his life in addition to the evil, yet no one cares about the good he might have done. Forrest literally traded other humans just as one would cattle, and if that stain is what he is remembered for, so be it.
    Agreed.

    The Germans I know always find our Confederate monuments fascinating. They don't commemorate members of the Nazi party who repented after the war. They also never had a Lost Cause movement try and glorify the lone Nazi soldier who fought for family and home (or was it blood and soil?), never killing any of Jewish faith during the war. IMO, these statues should all be relocated to a museum that provides the proper historical context. Some crimes need to be remembered for 50 generations so the mistakes of our past are not repeated. We do ourselves a disservice by whitewashing uncomfortable parts of history, and we bring ourselves shame by glorifying a man who, as CA put it, traded other humans as cattle. If Forrest indeed found religion and repented later in life, it's for his god alone to forgive the sins of his past; we should not.

  8. #99
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by danb View Post
    True historical facts are a hard sell to most everyone that grew up listening to civil war history that our schools taught most everyone to believe. The victors write the history, and that dictates the modern mindset. Folks have a hard time relating to the ways of the world in the mid to late 1800’s, and judge men by today’s standard. I’m sure, 150 years from now we will be judged differently from our true intent.....I do appreciate your input of true actual history....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    saying that slaves not running away from their masters when they had a chance is a sign of the greatness/kindness of the master is not actual history, that is a subjective interpretation of what happened.

    i appreciate the historical input in this thread and it has been very interesting, but the myth of the loyal slave loving their master and that the master is to be held in honor in part because is a core piece of lost cause mythology.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  9. #100
    BamaNation All-American Intl.Aperture's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by CharminTide View Post
    Agreed.

    The Germans I know always find our Confederate monuments fascinating. They don't commemorate members of the Nazi party who repented after the war. They also never had a Lost Cause movement try and glorify the lone Nazi soldier who fought for family and home (or was it blood and soil?), never killing any of Jewish faith during the war. IMO, these statues should all be relocated to a museum that provides the proper historical context. Some crimes need to be remembered for 50 generations so the mistakes of our past are not repeated. We do ourselves a disservice by whitewashing uncomfortable parts of history, and we bring ourselves shame by glorifying a man who, as CA put it, traded other humans as cattle. If Forrest indeed found religion and repented later in life, it's for his god alone to forgive the sins of his past; we should not.
    I agree with everything you said except for this line. I think it's possible to forgive someone like Forrest but also not put him in a place of honor and prestige and immortalize him in that way. I think there is a stark difference between forgiving someone and exalting their personhood by giving them a statue. That's always been my quibble with these statues. Other than that we are in complete agreement.
    ďAnd what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man.Ē
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  10. #101
    BamaNation Hall of Fame CharminTide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Intl.Aperture View Post
    I agree with everything you said except for this line. I think it's possible to forgive someone like Forrest but also not put him in a place of honor and prestige and immortalize him in that way. I think there is a stark difference between forgiving someone and exalting their personhood by giving them a statue. That's always been my quibble with these statues. Other than that we are in complete agreement.
    Fair distinction. I certainly agree that American slave traders should not be honored in our society, no matter their regret later in life. They should be remembered and their mistakes learned from, but they should not be exalted.

  11. #102
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    I would have a lot easier time accepting the removal if the premises under which they were removed was different.
    Lots of people today are saying that these monuments were erected as monuments to racism and slavery.
    If political leaders doing the removing would say to the removeniks, "Well, your premise ("these are monuments to racism and slavery") is demonstrably not true, but, out of an abundance of desire not to give offense, we are going to give into you irrationality and agree to remove the statue, not because you are correct as to their intended meaning, but just to be good neighbors." If accompanied by a statement along those lines, it would be easier to take.
    As I have said before, I have viewed hundreds of these monuments and read scores of the speeches given at their dedications, and never, not once, have those who erected the monuments said, "This monument is dedicated to racism and slavery." Not one.
    So, to surrender judgment on the matter to people just because they look like the people who actually did suffer under slavery, and to tell others simply because of the color of their skin that they have no say in the matter, strikes me as the very definition of racism. It also established the principle that what someone actually says is not relevant; how people [mis]interpret what was said is all that matters. Free speech is incompatible with such an arrangement.

  12. #103
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I would have a lot easier time accepting the removal if the premises under which they were removed was different.
    Lots of people today are saying that these monuments were erected as monuments to racism and slavery.
    If political leaders doing the removing would say to the removeniks, "Well, your premise ("these are monuments to racism and slavery") is demonstrably not true, but, out of an abundance of desire not to give offense, we are going to give into you irrationality and agree to remove the statue, not because you are correct as to their intended meaning, but just to be good neighbors." If accompanied by a statement along those lines, it would be easier to take.
    As I have said before, I have viewed hundreds of these monuments and read scores of the speeches given at their dedications, and never, not once, have those who erected the monuments said, "This monument is dedicated to racism and slavery." Not one.
    So, to surrender judgment on the matter to people just because they look like the people who actually did suffer under slavery, and to tell others simply because of the color of their skin that they have no say in the matter, strikes me as the very definition of racism. It also established the principle that what someone actually says is not relevant; how people [mis]interpret what was said is all that matters. Free speech is incompatible with such an arrangement.
    well, the good thing for the people of memphis and other locales is these decisions don't really hinge on your acceptance

    and the whole point of the lost cause movement was to try to pretend that the civil war was not about slavery and racism and to promote the confederacy as some inherently honorable and noble victim of government tyranny and overreach. why would they turn around and tell folks it was about slavery and racism.
    Last edited by 92tide; March 8th, 2018 at 03:43 PM.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

    - George Orwell

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they donít have to worry about the answers.

    ó Thomas Pynchon

  13. #104

    Re: Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    So, to surrender judgment on the matter to people just because they look like the people who actually did suffer under slavery, and to tell others simply because of the color of their skin that they have no say in the matter, strikes me as the very definition of racism. It also established the principle that what someone actually says is not relevant; how people [mis]interpret what was said is all that matters. Free speech is incompatible with such an arrangement.
    No one said people other than blacks had no say in the matter, but you have to remember that nearly 2/3rds of the population in Memphis is indeed black.

    Reading what you wrote it's almost as if all forms of segregation and second class citizenship ended in 1865. It didn't, at least not in Memphis, which is why there are people alive today who still vividly recall having to use separate water fountains and bathrooms and being told they cannot eat in certain restaurants. To act as if there's no connection to the civil rights violations that continued long after the the CW was decided seems a bit odd - there's zero question that black people in Memphis didn't have the same rights and opportunities their white counterparts had until just a few decades ago.

    And that is why a statue of a man who bought and sold people like them, possibly even some of their direct lineage, needs to come down and not be celebrated.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

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