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  1. #40
    BamaNation Hall of Fame BamaMoon's Avatar
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Isn't what we now call a RPO very, very similar to what a traditional offense would call a play action pass?

    I know in that setup the qb typically isn't a run threat, but the fake to the running back accomplishes the same thing when it comes to freezing the linebackers.

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  3. #41
    BamaNation All-American AlistarWills's Avatar
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    So reading that article, a thought crossed my mind.
    Are we at a point that most coaches don’t know how to teach QB’s to dissect a defense? At the HS level I can see that more. Then you run the read-option crap because it’s easier to do.
    Are coaches lazy or don’t have enough time to work with a kid on how to be a pocket passer and dissect a defense?
    Then there’s the intelligence of the player. We all know the American masses seem to be getting dumber and dumber and can’t seem to think for themselves.

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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlistarWills View Post
    So reading that article, a thought crossed my mind.
    Are we at a point that most coaches don’t know how to teach QB’s to dissect a defense? At the HS level I can see that more. Then you run the read-option crap because it’s easier to do.
    Are coaches lazy or don’t have enough time to work with a kid on how to be a pocket passer and dissect a defense?
    Then there’s the intelligence of the player. We all know the American masses seem to be getting dumber and dumber and can’t seem to think for themselves.
    I think part of it is takes special players. My playing background is in basketball. Played point and shooting guard in HS and college. But a QB is like the point guard in basketball.

    Talents are usually gained in 2 ways: God given and developed.

    Alot of what makes a great passer in football and a great passer in basketball is God-given. A Player either has it or not. Most of it is simply anticipatory vision. It's the ability to see something happen in your minds eye before it happens. Then, the timing of a pass is based upon what is happening before it happens. You pass to guys in both sports in transition and it happens before they are actually considered open.

    I think this is something Tua has that Jalen will never have because at the very highest levels it's not something to be learned or develped. You either have it or you don't.

    It's why there are few Magic Johnsons and John Stocktons and Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys.

  5. #43
    BamaNation All-American AlistarWills's Avatar
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    I think part of it is takes special players. My playing background is in basketball. Played point and shooting guard in HS and college. But a QB is like the point guard in basketball.

    Talents are usually gained in 2 ways: God given and developed.

    Alot of what makes a great passer in football and a great passer in basketball is God-given. A Player either has it or not. Most of it is simply anticipatory vision. It's the ability to see something happen in your minds eye before it happens. Then, the timing of a pass is based upon what is happening before it happens. You pass to guys in both sports in transition and it happens before they are actually considered open.

    I think this is something Tua has that Jalen will never have because at the very highest levels it's not something to be learned or develped. You either have it or you don't.

    It's why there are few Magic Johnsons and John Stocktons and Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys.
    So you are saying Tua is a Jedi? Sees things before it happens.
    I understand though what you are saying. In football it’s sometimes referred to as “throwing the receiver open”.

  6. #44
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    Isn't what we now call a RPO very, very similar to what a traditional offense would call a play action pass?

    I know in that setup the qb typically isn't a run threat, but the fake to the running back accomplishes the same thing when it comes to freezing the linebackers.
    It is, in the sense that the OL run blocks, creating uncertainty with the defense as to whether it's a running or passing play. The main difference is the QB reading the safety or the linebacker and making his decision to keep the ball, hand it off, or, if the defender closes, to pass into the resulting void. There wasn't much of it before 2009 in the NCAA, when the rules were changed to allow OL to block 3 yards downfield. Of course, that 3 turns into at least 5 in practice. There's still not much RPO in the pros, with their one yard blocking allowance, some, but it's not taken the league by storm like it has college...
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  7. #45
    BamaNation First Team DC Tide's Avatar
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    It is, in the sense that the OL run blocks, creating uncertainty with the defense as to whether it's a running or passing play. The main difference is the QB reading the safety or the linebacker and making his decision to keep the ball, hand it off, or, if the defender closes, to pass into the resulting void.
    Yep, exactly (as least as I understand it). In that slant to Foster that I was citing, Tua is reading the safety. If the safety hangs back, he hands it off to Bo. But the safety comes up to crash the line, opening up the middle. Tua sees it and throws a strike to Foster. Simple little RPO, but well-executed.

    If it had been a traditional play-action pass, I think that Tua would've thrown it to Foster (or another receiver) no matter what, hoping that the PA fake would bait the safety.

  8. #46
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    I think part of it is takes special players. My playing background is in basketball. Played point and shooting guard in HS and college. But a QB is like the point guard in basketball.
    Talents are usually gained in 2 ways: God given and developed.
    A lot of what makes a great passer in football and a great passer in basketball is God-given. A Player either has it or not. Most of it is simply anticipatory vision. It's the ability to see something happen in your minds eye before it happens. Then, the timing of a pass is based upon what is happening before it happens. You pass to guys in both sports in transition and it happens before they are actually considered open.
    I think this is something Tua has that Jalen will never have because at the very highest levels it's not something to be learned or develped. You either have it or you don't.

    It's why there are few Magic Johnsons and John Stocktons and Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys.
    That is a fact I believe. Very difficult to describe and practically impossible to teach. Certainly it can be improved upon with work and practice but fine motor skills are God given and separate the very few from the many in the highest level of all sports.

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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by DC Tide View Post
    Yep, exactly (as least as I understand it). In that slant to Foster that I was citing, Tua is reading the safety. If the safety hangs back, he hands it off to Bo. But the safety comes up to crash the line, opening up the middle. Tua sees it and throws a strike to Foster. Simple little RPO, but well-executed.

    If it had been a traditional play-action pass, I think that Tua would've thrown it to Foster (or another receiver) no matter what, hoping that the PA fake would bait the safety.
    I think we're working ourselves to the same page. In the PA, the QB doesn't pull the ball back out. Also, the RPO requires the OL "fake" for run blocking. I haven't looked back at Tua's pass yet...
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  10. #48
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    In a play action pass the QB pretends to hand the ball to the RB in hopes of drawing in the LBs/secondary to open up passing lanes. Handing the ball off isn't actually an option. It's a pass all the way.

    In an RPO the QB has the option to hand off or pass. There are several ways to do that. The O-line doesn't know if it's a run or pass beforehand. No one does.
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  11. #49
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by CoachJeff View Post
    In a play action pass the QB pretends to hand the ball to the RB in hopes of drawing in the LBs/secondary to open up passing lanes. Handing the ball off isn't actually an option. It's a pass all the way.

    In an RPO the QB has the option to hand off or pass. There are several ways to do that. The O-line doesn't know if it's a run or pass beforehand. No one does.
    These days, it's still in question when the OL is 5-6 yards downfield. I would like to see the college rule go back to one yard. That's not hard to officiate...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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    “I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.” Albert Camus

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  12. #50
    BamaNation Hall of Fame B1GTide's Avatar
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    These days, it's still in question when the OL is 5-6 yards downfield. I would like to see the college rule go back to one yard. That's not hard to officiate...
    Yeah, but then Malzahn would have to throw out his whole play book.

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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaInBham View Post
    I also prefer the pro-style O - much prefer it. But there is one other component beside QB that forces programs to the RPO style O - the need for a very good OL. This is as difficult to find and build as a suitable QB. Great recruiting and coaching usually required. Most programs are not able. The RPO style was developed as one of the few options that gave the little guy or even the "good" a chance to compete with the best.
    ^^^^^THIS.

    We've been hiding an O-line with holes for a couple years now.
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    Re: Tua - the end of the read option lovefest? (article)

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    Isn't what we now call a RPO very, very similar to what a traditional offense would call a play action pass?

    I know in that setup the qb typically isn't a run threat, but the fake to the running back accomplishes the same thing when it comes to freezing the linebackers.
    It is trying to accomplish the same thing, yes, but in the RPO the decision to run or throw isn't decided until the play is actually being run. A play-action pass can be effective, too, but since the offensive linemen know a pass play is actually being run, they will stand up into a pass blocking position. This is often a key that LBs look for so they know to drop into coverage. With an RPO, it is still a guessing game, and if those OL are allowed to block downfield, it is practically impossible for the defense to know what to do, which makes the play practically impossible to defend. If the refs allow OL to get away with that, the defense is playing with one hand tied behind their backs.

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