Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice, letting him stay at QB? - Page 4
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  1. #40
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    I've been saying this for some time now, but I think we have to balance that with what a coach is telling him to do - if you read that someone is open, but then you have to calculate whether or not he's open 'enough' or you have to think about whether or not you should throw it, it will make you more sluggish wrt making decisions than you really are.

    I mean, he looks more inhibited this season than last year, and I doubt it's due to the complexity of the offense.

    I think it's obvious that Tua has 'quicker eyes' (reads through his progressions more rapidly) and I'm not sure that JH can do it quickly as TT does no matter what - few can, imo - but if JH is feeling pressure to not make mistakes to the point it's affecting his play, one area we'll see that manifest itself is in his decision-making. He needs to stop thinking and react to what he sees, and that only happens if CNS and CO unleash him.

    Only then will we truly know what he's capable of. Last year he was a FR and was kept under tight-ish reigns, this year he seems even more risk-averse - I don't think that's all on JH...

    Then I think this begs the question as to why would the coaches put restrictions on JH but not do the same on Tua? It seems the staff doesn't trust or have confidence that Jalen can make the same "right decisions" within this offense as Tua. So they severely restrict what he's allowed to do. It's tough to tell from our viewpoint (in the comfort of our recliners. LOL!) whether the issues are due to confidence or ability issues. But one thing I think is certain. CNS isn't going back to the offense we ran when Hurts was in there. The requirement is going to be the full playbook that we saw in the second half. Which ever QB can best run that will be the one we see behind center.

    But I love both of these QB's as people. The class they both (especially Jalen) showed to each other is something many adults can learn from. I made my boys watch it and I took that opportunity to have a "parenting moment" to teach them that's what sportsmanship looks like.
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  3. #41

    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    Then I think this begs the question as to why would the coaches put restrictions on JH but not do the same on Tua?
    Not sure it's that simple - and I'm not sure we won't see Tua become more conservative if he becomes the starter.

    Again, look at JH's numbers last year - he was a FR and they tried not to put him in situations where his mistake would lose the game for us, but he was more aggressive last year than this year. As Earle relayed, his one interception "is a bug, not a feature."

    Tua is likely naturally more aggressive - he trusts his arm more and appears to be less risk-averse as he believes he can make all the throws. I just hope he keeps that attitude and Saban's generally conservative nature don't reign that in too much.
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  4. #42
    BamaNation All-SEC 78Alum's Avatar
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice?

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    A few thoughts:

    I think that Saban will be honest with Jalen.
    I think that Saban believes that Jalen will continue to improve.
    I think that Saban will tell Jalen that improvement will be necessary to win the starting QB job next year.
    I think that Jalen will embrace the challenge.

    Is it a disservice to give Jalen that opportunity and to continue to believe in him? Not in my opinion.

    As for other positions - he really isn't a RB since he lacks quickness. He can outrun players, but he really doesn't make them miss. I have no idea if he can catch well enough to try HB or TE. With his size, speed (4.5 40) and athleticism he could probably play many defensive positions but I have no idea if he has any interest there.

    I have no idea what is going to happen with Jalen, but I believe that Saban will try to help him achieve his goals, whatever they may be.
    ^^^this

  5. #43
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Not sure it's that simple - and I'm not sure we won't see Tua become more conservative if he becomes the starter.

    Again, look at JH's numbers last year - he was a FR and they tried not to put him in situations where his mistake would lose the game for us, but he was more aggressive last year than this year. As Earle relayed, his one interception "is a bug, not a feature."

    Tua is likely naturally more aggressive - he trusts his arm more and appears to be less risk-averse as he believes he can make all the throws. I just hope he keeps that attitude and Saban's generally conservative nature don't reign that in too much.

    My dad said this last night. Saban's risk adverse mentality is something that drives my dad nuts on offense. He said last night "Just wait, give Saban a full offseason with Tua and the offense we saw in the second half will be gone." I hope he's not right.
    The existence of God isn't determined in the thoughts of man. God exists, no matter what man thinks.

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  6. #44
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    I've been saying this for some time now, but I think we have to balance that with what a coach is telling him to do - if you read that someone is open, but then you have to calculate whether or not he's open 'enough' or you have to think about whether or not you should throw it, it will make you more sluggish wrt making decisions than you really are.

    I mean, he looks more inhibited this season than last year, and I doubt it's due to the complexity of the offense.

    I think it's obvious that Tua has 'quicker eyes' (reads through his progressions more rapidly) and I'm not sure that JH can do it quickly as TT does no matter what - few can, imo - but if JH is feeling pressure to not make mistakes to the point it's affecting his play, one area we'll see that manifest itself is in his decision-making. He needs to stop thinking and react to what he sees, and that only happens if CNS and CO unleash him.

    Only then will we truly know what he's capable of. Last year he was a FR and was kept under tight-ish reigns, this year he seems even more risk-averse - I don't think that's all on JH...
    I agree 100%. I also agree with BamaBuzzard. I dont think JH ceiling as a passer is in the same zip code as Tua. However, he has perfected some skills that Tua will have to learn. As Dilfer said. You push a guy harder than he can take to see what he is made of and what his ceiling is. Time to push JH and say if you ever have aspirations of becoming an NFL QB you have to become a better passer, more aggressive, faster through progressions and not afraid to pull the trigger.

    All I am asking is to put them on the same mental track and let them push one another and see what happens. As a coach, Tua just put himself as our Co-starting QB. And I don't believe in having 2 QBs. So they are on an even playing field now. No more loyalty or obligation to one over the other. They compete and the best guy wins the job.

    I still think Coach has to grow, change and adapt at the QB position as he has with his philosophy on Defense and Offense the last 5 years. He has to let a QB be a playmaker and accept with that comes some mistakes. I think the pros will outweigh the cons. At least in games where we know you cant play it close to the vest.

  7. #45
    BamaNation Hall of Fame CrimsonSEC's Avatar
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    Then I think this begs the question as to why would the coaches put restrictions on JH but not do the same on Tua? It seems the staff doesn't trust or have confidence that Jalen can make the same "right decisions" within this offense as Tua. So they severely restrict what he's allowed to do. It's tough to tell from our viewpoint (in the comfort of our recliners. LOL!) whether the issues are due to confidence or ability issues. But one thing I think is certain. CNS isn't going back to the offense we ran when Hurts was in there. The requirement is going to be the full playbook that we saw in the second half. Which ever QB can best run that will be the one we see behind center.

    But I love both of these QB's as people. The class they both (especially Jalen) showed to each other is something many adults can learn from. I made my boys watch it and I took that opportunity to have a "parenting moment" to teach them that's what sportsmanship looks like.
    Jalen's a sharp kid and I think his and the coaches "decisions" on the field are based on his ability alone. He just doesn't have the ability to see the field and spin it with accuracy as well as Tua does. Jalen's a very good college QB but IMO will never play the position at the next level. Tua, OTOH, like Jalen says, was born to play the position and is a rare talent. We are incredibly fortunate to have them both.
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  8. #46
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by uafanataum View Post
    There are 129 FBS teams. I think all but about 10 of them would love to have Jalen as a starter.
    Alabama would love to have him as a starter too if Tua wasn't already on the team.

    I honestly believe that the skills Tua has is right on par with Manziel. Maybe more so because Tua's arm is stronger. Give Tua the keys to this offense next year from Game 1 and he wins the Heisman next year.

  9. #47
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Is it any wonder poor Jalen became so gun shy? There's a whole culture preceding Saban of treating interceptions as the cardinal sin in Tuscaloosa. Throw in Saban's obsession with it and it's just too much. Jalen had the look of a man who had the weight of the world lifted off his shoulders in the second half.


    I hope Saban doesn't try to neuter Tua. It's the confidence in his arm and fearless nature to let it rip and trust his receivers that saved Saban's butt and got him #6. I loved it when Tua had his arm around Saban consoling him after that interception. It may be that Saban has more to learn from Tua than vice versa. Ponder that one!!!!

  10. #48
    BamaNation Hall of Fame BamaMoon's Avatar
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice?

    I don't know how CNS will manage the situation. I think to most of us it looks about as closed case as it can be, but CNS isn't us.

    But, I'll simply address of few thoughts/sentiments from here and other similar threads:

    "But what if Jalen works really hard and learns how to be a better passer": What do you think he's been doing for two years? At this point, the proof is in the pudding. And no, it's not an arm strength/talent issue as much as it the intagibles that go with being a great passer.

    "But what if Tua becomes a turnover machine/Jalen doesn't throw hardly any INTs" - CNS will demand Tua be smart and safe with the ball, but that doesn't men he won't still be able to be a dynamic passer. Remember the year AJ threw for 30 tds and only had 3 INTs.? And sure, Jalen didn't thrown many INTs for a simple reason. He didn't throw hardly any passes unless his receiver was wide open. That's the reason our offense struggled so much in the passing game with him. So he didn't throw many INTs, but he also didn't make many first downs on 3rd and 5+ and he didn't throw many TDs against the better defenses.

    "But Jalen is a better runner/Jalen didn't throw for TDs but he ran for them" - I'm not really sure Jalen's a better runner unless you are talking about him running over a linebacker head on. Jalen scored some TDs and got some yards rushing at the expense of our running backs. That's why you have 'em. As for RPOs, Tua will put the "P" threat back in that that Jalen honestly never really was a threat to do AND when he runs he pretty dadgum good!

    "But what if Tua throws an INT and we lose because of that?" - That's why we play defense and are about the best around at it. How many times have we turned the ball over deep in our own end and the defense bailed us out with a stop or held the opposing team to a fg? They did it against Clemson on the first play of the second half in the semi game when Jalen fumbled. Oh, and if Tua throws a pick six in a game or the other teams converts a TD or FG from an INT, what about the likely 2 or 3 TDs he'll probably also account for on our side of the scoreboard with his arm talent?

    "What if coach tells Jalen to be more aggresive and take more chances?" - Well, that's who you have in Tua right now. Plus, the issue of accuracy suddenly becomes a huge issue. The reason Tua can be more aggressive is because as Daboll says he can hit a "keyhole." One of the reasons Jalen was never able to be as aggresive as he needed to be is because his accuracy is not very good. He constantly throws ball behind receivers and low and away. He really struggles with hitting guys on time and in the hands. If Jalen starts taking more chances and his throws are inaccurate he'll start having more INTs.

    "Jalen has only lost two games as a starter" - No, Alabama's team only lost two games with him as a starter.

    "He can transfer and be successful somewhere else" - He'd have to sit out a year and he could then play as a Sr. His best bet would be to stay and backup Tua (presuming he's named starter) and then graduate and use the rule where he could be a graduate transfer and play without having to sit out. If Jalen decides to transfer (not saying he should) this is his best play IMO.

  11. #49
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice?

    ?????????

  12. #50
    BamaNation All-SEC carder24's Avatar
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    Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgw View Post
    Hurts was very underdeveloped as a passer out of high school and frankly he may have had his development stunted further by being put on the field so early in college. He never got an opportunity to just focus on self-development because he was being asked to do what was necessary to win that week. I truly believe he just needs a redshirt year in one of the next two seasons to do just that w/r/t self-development.

    Honestly, he over-performed his projection as a passer out of high school but we're in a tier of competition where he needs to be able to execute at a high level against some of the absolute best to meet our realistic goals as a team.
    My opinion as well, this is where if Jalen chooses to use this opportunity to develop, I can imagine him sticking it out to continue to improve his passing game, push Tua, and possibly take over again later...if he transfers, he likely plays/starts and does not have that development in a non-pro style offense


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    Last edited by carder24; January 13th, 2018 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #51
    BamaNation Hall of Fame JustNeedMe81's Avatar
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    This is what I've been thinking about for the last few days.

    I love both of them as a player and as a person and I have tremendous respect for both of them and what they bring to the table. My thought on Jalen and Saban is that He will give Jalen every chance to win back his job and the team by his improvement on the field. Everyone is saying Tua won the job... but something inside me told me that it is not over. I really want Jalen to not give up and keep fighting.

    Now, if Jalen lose his starting job, I can't see him as HB or WR... Everyone keeps saying he's a best fit there, but we don't know until we actually see him trying different position and I don't think we will see that. Whoever lose the spring battle will most likely transfer.
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  14. #52
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    Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

    Quote Originally Posted by JustNeedMe81 View Post
    This is what I've been thinking about for the last few days.

    I love both of them as a player and as a person and I have tremendous respect for both of them and what they bring to the table. My thought on Jalen and Saban is that He will give Jalen every chance to win back his job and the team by his improvement on the field. Everyone is saying Tua won the job... but something inside me told me that it is not over. I really want Jalen to not give up and keep fighting.

    Now, if Jalen lose his starting job, I can't see him as HB or WR... Everyone keeps saying he's a best fit there, but we don't know until we actually see him trying different position and I don't think we will see that. Whoever lose the spring battle will most likely transfer.
    Wouldn't really benefit Jalen to transfer at this point. He'd have to sit a year and if he's on tract to graduate in three years like a lot of players who go to school year round he could tranfer after graduation and not sit at all.

    I think his best bet would be to learn behind Tua if he's named the starter.

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