Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice, letting him stay at QB?

bamacon

Hall of Fame
Apr 11, 2008
17,179
4,352
187
College Football's Mecca, Tuscaloosa
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

TBF, that's a fear I've had. I've wondered what happens when Tua throws two INTs in a row...
Look at how visibly frustrated the WRs were when Jalen was throwing it 10 yards over their heads, behind them, into the ground when the play was there. NUMEROUS times there were open receivers all over the place this year when JH pulled and ran or threw it into the stands.

Wen Tua came in they lit up because they knew he might go their way. He hit EVERYBODY up when he played. He looks for the opening and never has one number fixated in his reads.

I’ve heard for years how CNS has one and I’ve heard and read “Imagine his teams with an elite QB”. Save for AJ and he wasn’t really considered “elite” at the time he’s won with a game manager. I don’t think he’ll constrain Tua at all. I think teams are collectively saying “OH CRAP”!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

NationalTitles18

TideFans Legend
May 25, 2003
29,633
34,729
362
Mountainous Northern California
Of course, but that's not what I mean. I'm saying his generally conservative nature influences the players, in this case the QB, and might be having the effect of making them gun shy. He does treat turnovers like it's the end of the world, and his attitude has a direct impact on the players and how they view plays.

I believe Saban's overall attitude is why we've seen JH play more gun-shy this year than last. Hopefully my assertion is wrong - because if I'm not, I'm not sure how we don't see Tua's innate ability squashed.
TBF, that's a fear I've had. I've wondered what happens when Tua throws two INTs in a row...
I get what y'all are saying, but CNS trusted AJ to make throws in 2011 and 2012.

He kept Blake Sims in the AU game after multiple INT's and trusted him to make the throws that helped Alabama win that game.

Monday night he trusted Tua after the true freshman threw an INT on an very ill-advised pass.

He seems to understand that sometimes you have to take chances.

He also understands that sometimes taking chances you don't have to take will lose the game for you.

I think Tua's talented arm will earn him a longer leash to a point. He can get the ball in places others can't.

And teaching him to avoid TO's will make him a better player.

I'm not concerned. Tua will have plenty of reign and will be unleashed when needed.
 

B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,500
46,843
187
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

Look at how visibly frustrated the WRs were when Jalen was throwing it 10 yards over their heads, behind them, into the ground when the play was there. NUMEROUS times there were open receivers all over the place this year when JH pulled and ran or threw it into the stands.

Wen Tua came in they lit up because they knew he might go their way. He hit EVERYBODY up when he played. He looks for the opening and never has one number fixated in his reads.

I’ve heard for years how CNS has one and I’ve heard and read “Imagine his teams with an elite QB”. Save for AJ and he wasn’t really considered “elite” at the time he’s won with a game manager. I don’t think he’ll constrain Tua at all. I think teams are collectively saying “OH CRAP”!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Next year Alabama will have the best RB corps, WR corps and offensive line in the country. Add Tua and some very good TEs and this offense should be the best in the Saban era, by far.

If Daboll stays, look out. :eek:
 

GrayTide

Hall of Fame
Nov 15, 2005
18,810
6,245
187
Greenbow, Alabama
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

Of course, but that's not what I mean. I'm saying his generally conservative nature influences the players, in this case the QB, and might be having the effect of making them gun shy. He does treat turnovers like it's the end of the world, and his attitude has a direct impact on the players and how they view plays.

I believe Saban's overall attitude is why we've seen JH play more gun-shy this year than last. Hopefully my assertion is wrong - because if I'm not, I'm not sure how we don't see Tua's innate ability squashed.
IMO, there is a lot of truth in Brad's post. I do think CNS has so firmly stressed "not making mistakes at the QB position" that Hurts has in fact become gun-shy. Not saying this is the only thing that has affected his play, but it has to be in his mind on every snap he takes. I have no idea how this will affect Tua going forward, but it could really be an issue in trying to sign a future elite QB. This is just my opinion, but if I am a highly recruited QB knowing this plus knowing the current situation with 3 young QBs on the roster I am likely to look elsewhere.
 

B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,500
46,843
187
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

IMO, there is a lot of truth in Brad's post. I do think CNS has so firmly stressed "not making mistakes at the QB position" that Hurts has in fact become gun-shy. Not saying this is the only thing that has affected his play, but it has to be in his mind on every snap he takes. I have no idea how this will affect Tua going forward, but it could really be an issue in trying to sign a future elite QB. This is just my opinion, but if I am a highly recruited QB knowing this plus knowing the current situation with 3 young QBs on the roster I am likely to look elsewhere.
I also agree, but also think that Tua is gonna Tua, if you get my meaning. He is a gun slinger, and is going to throw the ball into tight spots because he trusts his eyes and arm. IMO, the only way to stop it is to put him on the bench. You have to accept the fact that he is going to put the ball in danger. It comes with the territory.

Jalen is going to have to let that side come out if he is going to have a chance to compete. He is going to have to trust his eyes and let it fly, then hope that the results are good enough.
 

UAH

All-American
Nov 27, 2017
3,595
4,129
187
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice?

I don't know how CNS will manage the situation. I think to most of us it looks about as closed case as it can be, but CNS isn't us.
But, I'll simply address of few thoughts/sentiments from here and other similar threads:
"But what if Jalen works really hard and learns how to be a better passer": What do you think he's been doing for two years? At this point, the proof is in the pudding. And no, it's not an arm strength/talent issue as much as it the intagibles that go with being a great passer.
"But what if Tua becomes a turnover machine/Jalen doesn't throw hardly any INTs" - CNS will demand Tua be smart and safe with the ball, but that doesn't men he won't still be able to be a dynamic passer. Remember the year AJ threw for 30 tds and only had 3 INTs.? And sure, Jalen didn't thrown many INTs for a simple reason. He didn't throw hardly any passes unless his receiver was wide open. That's the reason our offense struggled so much in the passing game with him. So he didn't throw many INTs, but he also didn't make many first downs on 3rd and 5+ and he didn't throw many TDs against the better defenses.
"But Jalen is a better runner/Jalen didn't throw for TDs but he ran for them" - I'm not really sure Jalen's a better runner unless you are talking about him running over a linebacker head on. Jalen scored some TDs and got some yards rushing at the expense of our running backs. That's why you have 'em. As for RPOs, Tua will put the "P" threat back in that that Jalen honestly never really was a threat to do AND when he runs he pretty dadgum good!
"But what if Tua throws an INT and we lose because of that?" - That's why we play defense and are about the best around at it. How many times have we turned the ball over deep in our own end and the defense bailed us out with a stop or held the opposing team to a fg? They did it against Clemson on the first play of the second half in the semi game when Jalen fumbled. Oh, and if Tua throws a pick six in a game or the other teams converts a TD or FG from an INT, what about the likely 2 or 3 TDs he'll probably also account for on our side of the scoreboard with his arm talent?
"What if coach tells Jalen to be more aggresive and take more chances?" - Well, that's who you have in Tua right now. Plus, the issue of accuracy suddenly becomes a huge issue. The reason Tua can be more aggressive is because as Daboll says he can hit a "keyhole." One of the reasons Jalen was never able to be as aggresive as he needed to be is because his accuracy is not very good. He constantly throws ball behind receivers and low and away. He really struggles with hitting guys on time and in the hands. If Jalen starts taking more chances and his throws are inaccurate he'll start having more INTs.
"Jalen has only lost two games as a starter" - No, Alabama's team only lost two games with him as a starter.
"He can transfer and be successful somewhere else" - He'd have to sit out a year and he could then play as a Sr. His best bet would be to stay and backup Tua (presuming he's named starter) and then graduate and use the rule where he could be a graduate transfer and play without having to sit out. If Jalen decides to transfer (not saying he should) this is his best play IMO.
I agree generally to what you are saying particularly the point that the team is 25-2. When one states JH is 25-2 it ignores the fact that the 2016 defense scored 20 or so touchdowns including punt returns. It was obvious to see that our anemic offense was going to be a significant issue after the TAMU game because a wounded defense could not hold up.

It is factual I believe that throwing for Tua is less challenging because he is a deep threat on every play and the running game is more effective because teams cannot survive with seven in the box.

It is true that CNS is a defensive minded coach and emphasizes ball security. Objectively he is wise enough to know that going three and out multiple times is at least as perilous as throwing an interception.

The fact that Saban signed a number of top rated receivers in this class is a clear indicator that he intended to and believed it necessary to throw the football. He said so numerous times over these last two years when he said "We need to get the ball into our play makers hands" "We need explosive plays"

IMO CNS's ball security emphasis is not a major factor impacting JH's passing performance.
 

B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,500
46,843
187
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice?

IMO CNS's ball security emphasis is not a major factor impacting JH's passing performance.
I would love to hear Jalen discuss what he sees on some plays. I have no idea what is hurting his performance on some plays because I have no idea what he saw and how he came to the decisions. I just know the results, and they look to come from either a lack of vision or a lack of trust in his eyes/arm. Add a strong desire not to let Saban down with a turnover and you get some tight play.
 

BamaMoon

Hall of Fame
Apr 1, 2004
20,932
15,935
282
Boone, NC
Jalen definitely looked looser the first half of the season when passing. As the season went on pressure and better opponents made him seem more hesitant and less accurate. He may have been looking over his shoulder a little also


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, and post FSU until TAMU our schedule was much easier too!
 

BamaMoon

Hall of Fame
Apr 1, 2004
20,932
15,935
282
Boone, NC
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice?

IMO CNS's ball security emphasis is not a major factor impacting JH's passing performance.
What I believe is the greater factor is his confidence. Confidence is built by doing something over and over to the point you believe you can do it before you do.

But I think the underlying problem with his confidence is his accuracy. I think this is Jalen's biggest physical weakness. When you mean to throw to a target but you consistently miss it you lose confidence.

Knowing you are not extremely accurate the fear of throwing in a tight window and the possiblity of INTs are ever present.

So I'd say it's accuracy>confidence>fear of CNS's wrath about TOs
 

JTBama

All-American
Jul 2, 2005
2,652
1
57
45
Some where out there
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

Look at how visibly frustrated the WRs were when Jalen was throwing it 10 yards over their heads, behind them, into the ground when the play was there. NUMEROUS times there were open receivers all over the place this year when JH pulled and ran or threw it into the stands.

Wen Tua came in they lit up because they knew he might go their way. He hit EVERYBODY up when he played. He looks for the opening and never has one number fixated in his reads.

I’ve heard for years how CNS has one and I’ve heard and read “Imagine his teams with an elite QB”. Save for AJ and he wasn’t really considered “elite” at the time he’s won with a game manager. I don’t think he’ll constrain Tua at all. I think teams are collectively saying “OH CRAP”!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think you make a good point in how the team responded. While we were all probably surprised at the level Tua stepped up,. I think I was most surprised at how the team responded on both sides of the ball. That's not a knock on Jalen but it's as if the team said "ok we got this now" and came to life. I think it speaks volumes about what they see in practice and the enthusiasm gap between the teams narrowed quickly. We have two great young men that played qb for us, but it comes at a time when one appears to be on a level that we are not accustomed to seeing. I think Coach came out of his comfort zone a great deal Monday night, and it's for that reason I agree as well on the issue of restraining him. I think CNS is going to move forward with Tua. The weapons we have now are not exactly at a conservative level, I think this may be as much as a change with CNS in terms of what he has and how he uses it as it to us fans that observe it. While I'm sure he'll work with him on time management and other basics, I think CNS will roll with this offense next year and let Tua display what he has....it's the reason he rolled the dice in the game Monday night to begin with. Rtr
 

Ole Man Dan

Hall of Fame
Apr 21, 2008
8,982
3,421
187
Gadsden, Al.
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

IMO, there is a lot of truth in Brad's post. I do think CNS has so firmly stressed "not making mistakes at the QB position" that Hurts has in fact become gun-shy. Not saying this is the only thing that has affected his play, but it has to be in his mind on every snap he takes. I have no idea how this will affect Tua going forward, but it could really be an issue in trying to sign a future elite QB. This is just my opinion, but if I am a highly recruited QB knowing this plus knowing the current situation with 3 young QBs on the roster I am likely to look elsewhere.
On the other hand... If I am a Hot Shot high school Quarterback I may think...
Coach Saban trusted a Freshman last year, and a Freshman this year.
If I'm a Hot Shot Receiver I'm gonna be watching a Freshman Receiver winning the National Championship, and thinking that could be me next year.
If I'm a Hot Shot Running Back and watching a Freshman (Najee) playing in a Championship Game... I'm gonna think... That could be me out there.

I've never lacked confidence.
Several years ago at a seminar, the man putting it on talked to me at a break and told me...
I hope you never get a pilot's license... You'd be the guy who thought he could make it between those two trees... ;)

That said I think it's healthy for a High School player to think... I'm good enough to do that.
 

NationalTitles18

TideFans Legend
May 25, 2003
29,633
34,729
362
Mountainous Northern California
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

To the original question:

If Coach Saban feels it is in Jalen's best interest to move elsewhere he would be doing him a disservice by not telling him that and giving Jalen the choice, with the caveat that circumstance may dictate a need for him to be a QB at some point from at least a team standpoint (say if, God forbid, Tua was injured and out of a game).

You have to balance what is best for the player with what is best for the team. You have to give the player input. You have to allow the player to own his decision. It's part of growth.
 

Bamabuzzard

FB Moderator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2004
30,569
18,331
237
48
Where ever there's BBQ, Bourbon & Football
Here's the trade off (in what I believe we get) by sticking with Hurts and the style offense we were running Pre-Second half.

-We'll get a lot less INT's.

-We'll get a lot less explosive plays in the passing game

-We'll struggle to score points against better defenses

-We'll have disgruntled WR's & RB's

-We'll begin to suffer in recruiting elite WR's and possibly RB's as well.

IMO, that sure is a hefty price to pay for simply getting less INT's. I think it comes down to trust. If the staff trust the QB they'll let him sling it around a bit. We saw it in Manziel vs Saban II in College Station. Saban let AJ turn it loose. He did the same in the SECCG against Georgia and then again against N.D. in the NCG. It wasn't only in those games he let AJ sling it around. He trusted him so we threw the ball more, it opened up the running game more, and our backs flourished. Blake Sims and Coker were treated the same way. As soon as the staff got a certain level of trust in them, they let them do more.

We can't go back to pre second half of this year's championship game. I don't care who is playing QB. The price is simply too steep.




I get what y'all are saying, but CNS trusted AJ to make throws in 2011 and 2012.

He kept Blake Sims in the AU game after multiple INT's and trusted him to make the throws that helped Alabama win that game.

Monday night he trusted Tua after the true freshman threw an INT on an very ill-advised pass.

He seems to understand that sometimes you have to take chances.

He also understands that sometimes taking chances you don't have to take will lose the game for you.

I think Tua's talented arm will earn him a longer leash to a point. He can get the ball in places others can't.

And teaching him to avoid TO's will make him a better player.

I'm not concerned. Tua will have plenty of reign and will be unleashed when needed.
 
Last edited:

CrimsonEyeshade

Hall of Fame
Nov 6, 2007
5,410
1,521
187
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

Of course, but that's not what I mean. I'm saying his generally conservative nature influences the players, in this case the QB, and might be having the effect of making them gun shy. He does treat turnovers like it's the end of the world, and his attitude has a direct impact on the players and how they view plays.

I believe Saban's overall attitude is why we've seen JH play more gun-shy this year than last. Hopefully my assertion is wrong - because if I'm not, I'm not sure how we don't see Tua's innate ability squashed.
Gotcha.

I still think the Saban philosophy is far more complicated than just ‘generally conservative.’ He brought in Kiffin, the destructive eternal adolescent, to modernize our offense. In 2014, he let a First-year starter, coming off a dismal spring game performance, throw the ball all over the field and give us perhaps the most dynamic season ever by an Alabama quarterback.

That doesn’t fit neatly into a conservative box. Which makes his handling of the QBs this year all the more strange. I believe his caution had more to do with Jalen’s strengths and weaknesses than anything else.

Look at how the offense changed when Tua ran the show in the blow-out wins. We repeatedly took shots downfield.

Night and day.
 
Last edited:

4Q Basket Case

FB|BB Moderator
Staff member
Nov 8, 2004
9,569
12,865
237
Tuscaloosa
Here's the trade off (in what I believe we get) by sticking with Hurts and the style offense we were running Pre-Second half.

-We'll get a lot less INT's.

-We'll get a lot less explosive plays in the passing game

-We'll struggle to score points against better defenses

-We'll have disgruntled WR's & RB's

-We'll begin to suffer in recruiting elite WR's and possibly RB's as well.

IMO, that sure is a hefty price to pay for simply getting less INT's. I think it comes down to trust. If the staff trust the QB they'll let him sling it around a bit. We saw it in Manziel vs Saban II in College Station. Saban let AJ turn it loose. He did the same in the SECCG against Georgia and then again against N.D. in the NCG. It wasn't only in those games he let AJ sling it around. He trusted him so we threw the ball more, it opened up the running game more, and our backs flourished. Blake Sims and Coker were treated the same way. As soon as the staff got a certain level of trust in them, they let them do more.

We can't go back to pre second half of this year's championship game. I don't care who is playing QB. The price is simply too steep.
The full banjeaux for you, sir!
 

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
63,414
67,193
462
crimsonaudio.net
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

Gotcha.

I still think the Saban philosophy is far more complicated than just ‘generally conservative.’ He brought in Kiffin, the destructive eternal adolescent, to modernize our offense. In 2014, he let a First-year starter, coming off a dismal spring game performance, throw the ball all over the field and give us perhaps the most dynamic performance ever by an Alabama quarterback.

That doesn’t fit neatly into a conservative box.
Agreed, and I never intended to come across as suggesting that CNS was stuck in the 1970's wrt offensive philosophy, if I somehow did. That said, look at LK's offense at FAU vs what we ran at Bama - there are similarities, but it's way more wide open at FAU. Kiffin was tamed a bit by CNS.

IOW, I'm simply suggesting that Saban's overall philosophy is generally conservative - not necessarily a fault (5 in 9), but when it comes to allowing a gunslinger like Tua to flourish, I'm not sure I see that happening.

But again, I hope I'm dead wrong. Tua has shown he's a special talent, and if CNS allows that to grow, the offense will be unstoppable.
 

STONECOLDSABAN

All-American
Sep 21, 2007
4,951
6,943
187
Mobile, AL
Re: Will Saban be doing Hurts a disservice? (regarding JH's future)

Agreed, and I never intended to come across as suggesting that CNS was stuck in the 1970's wrt offensive philosophy, if I somehow did. That said, look at LK's offense at FAU vs what we ran at Bama - there are similarities, but it's way more wide open at FAU. Kiffin was tamed a bit by CNS.

IOW, I'm simply suggesting that Saban's overall philosophy is generally conservative - not necessarily a fault (5 in 9), but when it comes to allowing a gunslinger like Tua to flourish, I'm not sure I see that happening.

But again, I hope I'm dead wrong. Tua has shown he's a special talent, and if CNS allows that to grow, the offense will be unstoppable.
He did turn Rohan Davey loose on the rest of the sec during his LSU days (though that was a long time ago).
 

New Posts

Latest threads

TideFans.shop : 2024 Madness!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.