Bad calls...

CB4 · Jan 19, 2018

IndyBison said:
Yes, that could definitely be a defensive holding. If the covering official sees what he feels is enough restriction, he takes a quick peak back at the quarterback. If the ball is already out and going another direction, there is no foul, but if he still has the ball or it's conning to that receiver, there will be a flag.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

So “mugging” a receiver is okay if the official sees the contact and then determines the ball isn’t “coming that way” or isn’t in the qb’s hand so they let it go? Sorry but that is plain dumb.

Ever occur to an official that the contact or “restriction” by the defender on the receiver could be the reason the quarterback delivered the ball elsewhere? And by the time that official “peaks back” the ball is out of the qb’s hands?

You want to know why fans scream about officiating? Because officials are making rule interpretation on certain calls far more arbitrary than they need to be. As an example above: what is “enough restriction”? Either the receiver being restricted (held) or he isn’t. There should be no “enough” to it.

I have a friend that officiates division one college football. See him at the gym from time to time. I tell him often I don’t envy what he does on Saturdays. Most fans realize how difficulty of the job. And the rule changes or the past 25-30 years hasn’t made that job any easier.

However, (pardon the pun) “the piling on” by fans on officials comes from situations like this. It drives us nuts.

IndyBison · Jan 19, 2018

RWTT11 said:
Not sure if it's been pointed out, but go to GA's first TD. The right tackle jumped before the snap and it wasn't called.

It appears the snap and the tackle went at the same time and the guard was a little delayed. This is why it looks like the tackle moved early.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Tider n LA · Jan 19, 2018

IndyBison said:
That's not a horse collar because he grabbed him around the waist and threw him down. The other hand appears to be in the collar but that's only part of the foul. It requires you to grab and pull sideways or backwards in a way that buckles the knees. That's not what happens here.

This is a good example of understanding the source of the rule helps you know why it exists. Several years ago there as a Cowboys defensive back who would chase down runners from behind, grab the back of their collar, and pull them down with all their weight by leaving their feet.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Part of the foul? Okay say he tackled him with just the one hand that was on the shoulder pad. Would have that been a horse collar tackle? Sorry just trying to figure out what a horse collar tackle is because I have seen worse called.

IndyBison · Jan 19, 2018

CB4 said:
So “mugging” a receiver is okay if the official sees the contact and then determines the ball isn’t “coming that way” or isn’t in the qb’s hand so they let it go? Sorry but that is plain dumb.

Ever occur to an official that the contact or “restriction” by the defender on the receiver could be the reason the quarterback delivered the ball elsewhere? And by the time that official “peaks back” the ball is out of the qb’s hands?

You want to know why fans scream about officiating? Because officials are making rule interpretation on certain calls far more arbitrary than they need to be. As an example above: what is “enough restriction”? Either the receiver being restricted (held) or he isn’t. There should be no “enough” to it.

I have a friend that officiates division one college football. See him at the gym from time to time. I tell him often I don’t envy what he does on Saturdays. Most fans realize how difficulty of the job. And the rule changes or the past 25-30 years hasn’t made that job any easier.

However, (pardon the pun) “the piling on” by fans on officials comes from situations like this. It drives us nuts.

If the ball is already going to another receiver when the he peaks back he wasn't looking at that receiver when the restriction happens. I'm not talking about 2 or 3 seconds later. By enough I mean there could be hand fighting or legal blocking or a jersey grab that doesn't take anything away from the receiver. Those wouldn't be holds. The defenders get very little latitude in these cases so most restrictions will be holds.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

CB4 · Jan 19, 2018

day-day said:
I suspect that a ref would flag the hold as the play was developing if the ref saw it. I hope that this would not fall into the non-impact category for the exact reason you mentioned.

As for the Peterson run referenced in the article, I didn't see the play but if he was tackled for a 4 yard gain there wouldn't have been an opportunity for any kind of chase by the defensive end on the other end of the line so I can understand no impact here. My question would be when does the ref make this determination and can he pull the flag a little late if something allows the play to continue? Can they throw it and then wave it off?

I'm torn between liking the philosophy because it keeps the game moving and wanting every foul called because it should force the players to quit doing them and trying to get away with all the holds and such.

And that is where I am Day-Day. What service are you doing for the player if you’re saying “Hey in certain situations I’m letting you get away with something that is rules violations”? Shouldn’t the goal be to teach the player to have the discipline to play a “clean” game regardless of the situation?

IndyBison · Jan 19, 2018

Tider n LA said:
Part of the foul? Okay say he tackled him with just the one hand that was on the shoulder pad. Would have that been a horse collar tackle? Sorry just trying to figure out what a horse collar tackle is because I have seen worse called.

Correct. Two factors for a horse collar. Grabbing inside the back or side collar or shoulder pad (and now name plate) AND immediately pulling a runner to the ground backwards or sideways. If he has another arm on the defender that's also providing the force to pull him down. Or another defender is helping with the tackle. Or he grabs and runs a couple more steps and then tackles him. Those are all examples on no calls. Key indicators are going to be a defender in chase mode, using all their weight by leaving their feet, and the knees of the runner buckling. Those aren't absolutes but none of those things happened on that play.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Tider n LA · Jan 19, 2018

IndyBison said:
Correct. Two factors for a horse collar. Grabbing inside the back or side collar or shoulder pad (and now name plate) AND immediately pulling a runner to the ground backwards or sideways. If he has another arm on the defender that's also providing the force to pull him down. Or another defender is helping with the tackle. Or he grabs and runs a couple more steps and then tackles him. Those are all examples on no calls. Key indicators are going to be a defender in chase mode, using all their weight by leaving their feet, and the knees of the runner buckling. Those aren't absolutes but none of those things happened on that play.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

After all the questions and comments in this thread concerning the officiating in this game, would you admit that Georgia got away with their fair share of calls or no calls also?

TIDE-HSV · Jan 19, 2018

It's like there's a whole 'nother rule book which isn't in the rule book. As a lawyer, I don't like that...

bamaga · Jan 20, 2018

IndyBison said:
Thank you for asking the question. These are the philosophies taught to everyone by those at the NFL and Division I levels, the NFL VP of officials, the NFL rules committee, the CFO chair, and the NCAA rules committee (made up entirely of coaches). I've heard the same philosophies apply from friends who officiate basketball, baseball, soccer, and other sports. This doesn't apply to safety fouls. A part of something becoming a foul is that it needs to have a material impact on that play. So it's not that a foul is ignored. It's that one of the criteria for it being a foul hasn't been met.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

While I do not agree with all the comments, I do agree with this. If every foul were called on every play, the game stoppage would be ridiculous and games would be 6 hours long. But if what you say is common amongst officials, why do we see calls away from the play like holding .
What about the reviewed play, on enlargement it is clear the Georgia player’s heel is touching white. How can they not call that OOB? Also on the blocked punt it seems the opinion is the UGA player never enters the neutral zone , I think the player actually entered 5he neutral zone and it appears he did not due to camera angle, as the shot is not straight on.

crimsonaudio · Jan 20, 2018

bamaga said:
While I do not agree with all the comments, I do agree with this. If every foul were called on every play, the game stoppage would be ridiculous and games would be 6 hours long.

Maybe initially, but either the rules would change or the teams would practice proper technique even more.

The alternative leads us to where we are, where teams miraculously play their best game of the season against Bama year after year...

JTBama · Jan 20, 2018

Well if calls on the field do not equate to the NCAA definition of those calls, it even more begs the question ...Why the disparage between Alabama and it's opponents in penalties. That seems to indicate that even if the fouls are called by the book or not by the book the opposing team over the last couple of years is benefiting either way.

TIDE-HSV · Jan 20, 2018

JTBama said:
Well if calls on the field do not equate to the NCAA definition of those calls, it even more begs the question ...Why the disparage between Alabama and it's opponents in penalties. That seems to indicate that even if the fouls are called by the book or not by the book the opposing team over the last couple of years is benefiting either way.

Well, I disparage the disparity also. I've decided that our official visitor is not going to address that nor how the "philosophies" have led to this situation...

TIDE-HSV · Jan 20, 2018

scrodz said:
Fair point. I wonder if there's an easy way to sort the penalties into groups. If their procedure and safety penalties are lower against us, I'd say it's better game prep. If their holding, PI, etc were lower, I'd say not.

IDK is those stats are available on any level. Just on a gut level, it seems to me that it doesn't matter how egregious their holding is, it never gets called. The same obtains for DPI. They can practically tackle us before the ball get there and it's no call. Anyone wanting to argue this point should look at Krazy's numbers...

KrAzY3 · Jan 20, 2018

TIDE-HSV said:
IDK is those stats are available on any level

The best numbers I've seen so far are the ones from teamrankings. Beyond that, it would take someone doing something like a research paper to come up with any meaningful data. The problem with sorting the penalties is even then it only tells us what actually was called, not what should have been called.

It's one of those situations where something sure does seem off, but I'd be lying if I said I could point my fingers at anything specific. I'm not buying the other teams prepare better though. Why on earth would they not have done that from 2010-2013?

IndyBison · Jan 20, 2018

TIDE-HSV said:
Well, I disparage the disparity also. I've decided that our official visitor is not going to address that nor how the "philosophies" have led to this situation...

What could I possibly say toward it? I don't watch enough of your games to have an opinion about the quality of any calls or no calls. I guess all I can say is someone has to be at the bottom. I do find it very interesting that you've had a run there. Being a data geek I would love to dive in deeper.

Most of your games are officiated by SEC crews. It would be ridiculous to say they have any bias for or against Alabama. If there was any conspiracy involved I would think those behind it would want to favor their cash cow of Alabama. I bet every team you play says the officials are biased FOR you and that's why you win.

The officials really don't care who wins. They get paid the same regardless. They are evaluated on their calls and making incorrect calls either way would hurt their chances of postseason. Separately many of them are being evaluated by the NFL so even if there was some crazy conspiracy to favor one team it would destroy their chances of being hired by the NFL.

It's great banter for fan message boards but nothing more than that.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

colbysullivan · Jan 20, 2018

IndyBison said:
It's great banter for fan message boards but nothing more than that.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

That would hold water if we finished dead last only once, but this is totally different.

The bottom line is teams are penalized significantly less when they play Bama, that is a fact. Oftentimes the Bama game is that team’s least penalized game all year. That is far more than message board banter...

Tug Tide · Jan 20, 2018

IndyBison said:
Most of your games are officiated by SEC crews. It would be ridiculous to say they have any bias for or against Alabama. If there was any conspiracy involved I would think those behind it would want to favor their cash cow of Alabama. I bet every team you play says the officials are biased FOR you and that's why you win.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Indy,
This is spot on, every SEC fan base screams about the conference HQ being in Birmingham and the officials are all in Bama's pocket.

I'm curious as to how often you attend off-season rules/mechanics clinics? Are they run by the NCAA on a national level or are they conference based.

Again, I appreciate your input and perspective. As to the "philosophies" of officiating, I for one completely understand and agree with you. As a baseball umpire, I know those exist and respect that.

Go Bama · Jan 20, 2018

I’m going to have to remove myself from this thread.

The whole thread reminds me of trying to argue with an Iranian or North Korean ambassador. We’re not blind, we’re not stupid, and we’re not so biased that we can’t watch replays and see whether or not what we thought happened did in fact happen.

The repeated examples of why the rules should not be up for interpretation, of how this inserts the official into the game, and the lack of acknowledgement of the statistical data are all being ignored or brushed aside because we can’t understand the intent of the rules. We can and do understand the intent of the rules. I suspect most of us have played football, and many have coached or have officiated at some level.

It was a horse dollar tackle that met Indy’s requirements.

The Georgia receiver was out of bounds because his foot touched white. A 5th grader could interpret that rule. It is as black and white as the stripes on the official’s shirt.

Bugg’s got away with a face mask.

There were two blown calls on the blocked punt play.

Najee was either held or interfered with. You can’t mug a player like that and just say he wasn’t part of the play. What happened at the start of the play has nothing to do with it.

I can’t see me taking anything positive or enlightening from this thread so l’m out. It’s too frustrating.

formersoldier71 · Jan 20, 2018

Go Bama said:
I can’t see me taking anything positive or enlightening from this thread so l’m out. It’s too frustrating.

I have been enlightened to the fact that calls in Bama games have been and will be arbitrary and capricious.

colbysullivan · Jan 20, 2018

Go Bama said:
I’m going to have to remove myself from this thread.

The whole thread reminds me of trying to argue with an Iranian or North Korean ambassador. We’re not blind, we’re not stupid, and we’re not so biased that we can’t watch replays and see whether or not what we thought happened did in fact happen.

The repeated examples of why the rules should not be up for interpretation, of how this inserts the official into the game, and the lack of acknowledgement of the statistical data are all being ignored or brushed aside because we can’t understand the intent of the rules. We can and do understand the intent of the rules. I suspect most of us have played football, and many have coached or have officiated at some level.

It was a horse dollar tackle that met Indy’s requirements.

The Georgia receiver was out of bounds because his foot touched white. A 5th grader could interpret that rule. It is as black and white as the stripes on the official’s shirt.

Bugg’s got away with a face mask.

There were two blown calls on the blocked punt play.

Najee was either held or interfered with. You can’t mug a player like that and just say he wasn’t part of the play. What happened at the start of the play has nothing to do with it.

I can’t see me taking anything positive or enlightening from this thread so l’m out. It’s too frustrating.

Well said. There’s no point in having rules if they can just be arbitrarily interpreted.

The OOB call is black and white, but the reason we were given is “he was next to the line”. There’s no such thing as “next to the line”. He is either touching it or he isn’t, and Stevie Wonder could have seen his foot touching the line.

I’m done...

Bad calls...

Hall of Fame

1st Team

All-SEC

1st Team

Hall of Fame

1st Team

All-SEC

Senior Administrator

Hall of Fame

Administrator

All-American

Senior Administrator

Senior Administrator

Hall of Fame

1st Team

Hall of Fame

All-American

Hall of Fame

All-American

Hall of Fame

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!