Bad calls...

colbysullivan

Hall of Fame
Dec 12, 2007
16,697
13,610
187
Gulf Breeze, FL
I get that officials do not want to throw a flag every play. It bogs the game down and ruins the enjoyment of the event. Officials are like the soundtrack of a movie. They should be there, but you hope they are not noticeable.
Maybe he meant that his hope is that violations do not occur during the game.
If they do, however, I think the official has an obligation to call the penalty. I understand that if DPI happens in the far corner of the end zone against a player that could not have possibly caught the ball, the ref does not throw the flag in that case. Or offensive holding against a defensive player on the opposite side of the field who could not possibly have made the tackle.
In the case of Georgia's #45 and Najee Harris, the DPI was so obvious and Najee was the intended receiver and could easily have caught the ball, so the DPI flag should have been thrown, even though Ridley ended up catching the ball.
This. The day an official says “Well, they’re going to decline this penalty anyway so I won’t bother throwing the flag” is the day I stop watching. The result of the play should have no bearing on whether or not a flag is thrown. If you see it, call it...
 

IndyBison

1st Team
Dec 22, 2013
386
106
62
I'm sorry. I won't provide any more explanations if you don't want them. Good luck to Alabama next year and beyond.

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NationalTitles18

TideFans Legend
May 25, 2003
29,635
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Mountainous Northern California
I'm sorry. I won't provide any more explanations if you don't want them. Good luck to Alabama next year and beyond.

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Not really sure what you expected. You hold yourself out as an official and instead of clarifying the rules you help us to understand why officials' calls are so inconsistent (and sometimes just bad) across the sport and then get upset when knowledgeable fans call it for what it is.

It's obvious to many of us that the system is broken as opposed to a personal attack against you (although some criticism may be deserved based on what I've read).

I'm disappointed to say that I doubt, based on your response, that there will be self reflection and considerate thought given to the criticism but instead that in arrogance or defensiveness the wagons will be circled around an issue that is adversely affecting the game.

I don't think the problem is small enough for one official to address. And no one in power seem to want to do anything about it.
 

MattinBama

Hall of Fame
Jul 31, 2007
11,144
5,453
187
I'm sorry. I won't provide any more explanations if you don't want them. Good luck to Alabama next year and beyond.

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I for one want to thank you for taking the time to provide a perfect example of why NCAA officials are so bad at their jobs.

Watching you bring completely incorrect knowledge here was fascinating.
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,540
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I appreciate the irony. My wife gives me hell about it all the time, when she gets the error message "Contact your network administrator," and I'm sitting across the room. I simply don't know anything else to do...
 

FF4bama

1st Team
Sep 13, 2012
956
289
87
I'm sorry. I won't provide any more explanations if you don't want them. Good luck to Alabama next year and beyond.

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Indy I guess the thing that bothers me about the officiating approach that you describe is that the rules are still the rules even if they're broken away from the play. Is this something that came from the NCAA or the conferences or is it more of a personal philosophy? Do other officials share this view?
 

IndyBison

1st Team
Dec 22, 2013
386
106
62
Indy I guess the thing that bothers me about the officiating approach that you describe is that the rules are still the rules even if they're broken away from the play. Is this something that came from the NCAA or the conferences or is it more of a personal philosophy? Do other officials share this view?
Thank you for asking the question. These are the philosophies taught to everyone by those at the NFL and Division I levels, the NFL VP of officials, the NFL rules committee, the CFO chair, and the NCAA rules committee (made up entirely of coaches). I've heard the same philosophies apply from friends who officiate basketball, baseball, soccer, and other sports. This doesn't apply to safety fouls. A part of something becoming a foul is that it needs to have a material impact on that play. So it's not that a foul is ignored. It's that one of the criteria for it being a foul hasn't been met.

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B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,502
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I found it interesting that the coaches in the Film Room broadcast all agreed that the officials were not going to call things like holding in these games, so they all advised their teams in bowl games to try to get away with as much as they could. Grab in the secondary, hold on the LOS, etc. So the coaches know this and build it into their game plans in games like this. They said, essentially, go as far as you can and we can "dial it back" when we see what they will be calling in the game.
 

Go Bama

Hall of Fame
Dec 6, 2009
13,785
14,082
187
16outa17essee
Thank you for asking the question. These are the philosophies taught to everyone by those at the NFL and Division I levels, the NFL VP of officials, the NFL rules committee, the CFO chair, and the NCAA rules committee (made up entirely of coaches). I've heard the same philosophies apply from friends who officiate basketball, baseball, soccer, and other sports. This doesn't apply to safety fouls. A part of something becoming a foul is that it needs to have a material impact on that play. So it's not that a foul is ignored. It's that one of the criteria for it being a foul hasn't been met.

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If this is indeed the philosophy of all refs then the fan or coach has absolutely no idea of how a game will be called because rather than being like laws the rules become guidelines that will be called differently from crew to crew and game to game. If I were a ref I would prefer something much more black and white so my calls would be understood by those who understand the game.

With your present philosophy there is a valid explanation for every “bad” call. Frustration of both sides is the result.
 

CrimsonForce

Hall of Fame
Dec 20, 2012
12,757
94
67
Thank you for asking the question. These are the philosophies taught to everyone by those at the NFL and Division I levels, the NFL VP of officials, the NFL rules committee, the CFO chair, and the NCAA rules committee (made up entirely of coaches). I've heard the same philosophies apply from friends who officiate basketball, baseball, soccer, and other sports. This doesn't apply to safety fouls. A part of something becoming a foul is that it needs to have a material impact on that play. So it's not that a foul is ignored. It's that one of the criteria for it being a foul hasn't been met.

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Here's one of the many problems with officiating this way: unintended consequences. Say a defensive back is holding a WR and pushes him to the ground but the ball is thrown to another player so in your view holding/DPI is not called here because "no advantage was gained" in this moment. Then, the player who received the ball fumbles and the defensive back who was holding is in a better position and recovers the fumble because of said holding. There's a plethora of examples where a foul can have impacts on a play other than just in the specific moment..
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,540
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Huntsville, AL,USA
I would argue that every single hold on the LOS on a passing play confers an advantage but it just wasn't being called against UGA a week ago...
 

Titans&Tide

1st Team
Jul 22, 2000
623
473
187
52
Tuscaloosa, AL USA
www.kornegay.us
If this is indeed the philosophy of all refs then the fan or coach has absolutely no idea of how a game will be called because rather than being like laws the rules become guidelines that will be called differently from crew to crew and game to game. If I were a ref I would prefer something much more black and white so my calls would be understood by those who understand the game.

With your present philosophy there is a valid explanation for every “bad” call. Frustration of both sides is the result.
I agree with this. While I appreciate Indy's explanations and the backstory of why things are the way they are, it seems to me that enforcing rules selectively would (and has, obviously) lead to more rules getting broken on a given play. Example: My kid got a speeding ticket on the way home from Starkville a few weeks ago. Then he noticed that the state troopers seem to have set up shop along that stretch of Hwy 82. Guess where he absolutely DOESN'T speed now.

If players learn that they're going to get flagged when they break a rule - regardless of whether the foul had any bearing on the play or not - then they will quickly clean up their play so they don't negatively impact their team. It just seems obvious to me.
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,540
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Huntsville, AL,USA
If the refs did not call the UGA player offsides (he arguably was not offsides) and if the refs still missed the procedure penalty on Bama, then the blocked punt would stand. In other words, a whole lot of "ifs" needed for it to go their way.
Correct. They're reduced to examining the offsides in a vacuum, while ignoring the other obvious fouls...
 

day-day

Hall of Fame
Jan 2, 2005
9,939
1,660
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Bartlett, TN (Memphis area)
The game thread will blow up every time an official calls a foul against Bama that obviously has no impact on the play and is not an unsafe act. I like the "play on" rule being used but there is a higher risk of inconsistencies.

I suspect (hope) that a ref was reaching for his flag when the ball was heading towards #22 in the end zone but there was no need to pull it once Ridley caught the TD. I did not notice but did Coach Saban get after the refs for not calling pass interference on that play?
 

MattinBama

Hall of Fame
Jul 31, 2007
11,144
5,453
187
To claim that the PI against Harris was no big deal because the defender was getting no advantage in the play (as IndyBison proclaimed) is patently absurd if you've ever once in your life seen a tipped pass be caught by a person other than the initial receiver. Until the whistle is blown the offensive player that was just mugged on the play is at a disadvantage.
 

IndyBison

1st Team
Dec 22, 2013
386
106
62
I agree with this. While I appreciate Indy's explanations and the backstory of why things are the way they are, it seems to me that enforcing rules selectively would (and has, obviously) lead to more rules getting broken on a given play. Example: My kid got a speeding ticket on the way home from Starkville a few weeks ago. Then he noticed that the state troopers seem to have set up shop along that stretch of Hwy 82. Guess where he absolutely DOESN'T speed now.

If players learn that they're going to get flagged when they break a rule - regardless of whether the foul had any bearing on the play or not - then they will quickly clean up their play so they don't negatively impact their team. It just seems obvious to me.
These philosophies have existed in the 20 years I've been doing this and I presume long before that. Coaches and players generally seem to understand them and agree with them (doesn't stop them from arguing when they think they wish something away from the play would have been called in their favor). A back side hold or a defensive hold away from the throw will usually get a talk to by the covering official. "The ball comes this way and that's a hold" usually gets a positive response from the offender. They know you are watching and saw what they did and it would have been different if the conditions are different. This works when the philosophies are taught consistently, applied consistently, and reinforced consistently through evaluations. From what I see at the levels higher than me, this is done pretty consistently. If you don't know or understand the philosophies I can definitely see why you would think it's selective or inconsistent.

We have officiating shortages all over the country at the high school level and below. If you have any interest in doing this please let me know and I would love to put you in touch with someone in your area.

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CrimsonForce

Hall of Fame
Dec 20, 2012
12,757
94
67
To claim that the PI against Harris was no big deal because the defender was getting no advantage in the play (as IndyBison proclaimed) is patently absurd if you've ever once in your life seen a tipped pass be caught by a person other than the initial receiver. Until the whistle is blown the offensive player that was just mugged on the play is at a disadvantage.
Exactly. The unintended consequences of only calling a penalty when "an advantage is gained" is endless..
 

IndyBison

1st Team
Dec 22, 2013
386
106
62
To claim that the PI against Harris was no big deal because the defender was getting no advantage in the play (as IndyBison proclaimed) is patently absurd if you've ever once in your life seen a tipped pass be caught by a person other than the initial receiver. Until the whistle is blown the offensive player that was just mugged on the play is at a disadvantage.
PI no longer applies once the pass is tipped

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