Daboll frustrated - Wanted to start Tua in November

Bamabuzzard

FB Moderator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2004
30,570
18,349
237
48
Where ever there's BBQ, Bourbon & Football
I am right there with you but I do have issue with this part? Why is it absurd to think Tua might not have made any progress during all those practices, when it is pretty clear than Jalen has made no progress, even regressed, over the last two years' worth of practice?
Because it is very, very rare that an athlete stays at the exact same place for half a season, given a lot of practices and game experience (which Tua had). They either get better or they get worse. Jalen regressed and it didn't happen over one game. It was a progression that we saw taking place as each game passed and more teams had tape on him. It's like sitting in a boat and deciding not to paddle anymore. Simply because you decide to stop rowing doesn't mean you stop moving. You are constantly in motion. Rarely and I mean rarely do you sit perfectly still. The same thing applies in sports. Rarely do you stay in the exact same place for very long.

But the main point that I am trying to make is, it is not a given (like some are seemingly thinking) that Tua was in the exact same place in his development at midseason as he was in the NCG. It's purely speculation. Is it possible he was at the same developmental level? Certainly, but it isn't an absolute as some are trying to make it. No one really knows. Given the two (Daboll and Saban), whose opinion and judgement would you trust more? A coach whose won (at the time) 5 national titles and is considered to be THE best college coach to ever coach. Or a guy who couldn't consistently hold down an OC job in the NFL in his 18 years? It is so easy to take how the NCG ended and project the same level of play retroactively back into the regular season. I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened. I'm just saying it's not an absolute and people need to pump the breaks on how dogmatic they are about that viewpoint.
 

cbi1972

Hall of Fame
Nov 8, 2005
18,139
1,295
182
51
Birmingham, AL
Because it is very, very rare that an athlete stays at the exact same place for half a season, given a lot of practices and game experience (which Tua had). They either get better or they get worse. Jalen regressed and it didn't happen over one game. It was a progression that we saw taking place as each game passed and more teams had tape on him. It's like sitting in a boat and deciding not to paddle anymore. Simply because you decide to stop rowing doesn't mean you stop moving. You are constantly in motion. Rarely and I mean rarely do you sit perfectly still. The same thing applies in sports. Rarely do you stay in the exact same place for very long.

But the main point that I am trying to make is, it is not a given (like some are seemingly thinking) that Tua was in the exact same place in his development at midseason as he was in the NCG. It's purely speculation. Is it possible he was at the same developmental level? Certainly, but it isn't an absolute as some are trying to make it. No one really knows. Given the two (Daboll and Saban), whose opinion and judgement would you trust more? A coach whose won (at the time) 5 national titles and is considered to be THE best college coach to ever coach. Or a guy who couldn't consistently hold down an OC job in the NFL in his 18 years? It is so easy to take how the NCG ended and project the same level of play retroactively back into the regular season. I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened. I'm just saying it's not an absolute and people need to pump the breaks on how dogmatic they are about that viewpoint.
I don't think anybody is claiming Tua was at the exact same place in his development throughout the second half of the season.

They are saying he was good enough to beat everybody on the schedule even back in October, and good enough to win the championship game(s) in January.

Look back at his highlights from every game he's been in. They've been spectacular, with a few of the expected miscues, just like against Georgia.
 

Bamabuzzard

FB Moderator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2004
30,570
18,349
237
48
Where ever there's BBQ, Bourbon & Football
And they very well may have been right. But again, it's pure speculation. This article, Brian Daboll's "frustration" or Tua's performance in the NCG doesn't validate or confirm the assertion. We'll never know and it doesn't really matter at this point. We won the national title.


I don't think anybody is claiming Tua was at the exact same place in his development throughout the second half of the season.

They are saying he was good enough to beat everybody on the schedule even back in October, and good enough to win the championship game(s) in January.

Look back at his highlights from every game he's been in. They've been spectacular, with a few of the expected miscues, just like against Georgia.
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,306
31,375
187
South Alabama
The truth is CNS favors safe qbs like Gmac over passers like Coker. Gmac qbs are great when your opposition doesn’t either have a great passer or great defense because you get to impose your will and have a low turnover margin. But in this day and age you need a qb that can play catch up if things go bad like a Coker qb can. But you have far more turnovers with that kind of qb.

I know people will point to the Ole Miss game last year and say Jalen brought us back, but there were a few NOTs and a bad Ole Miss defense involved in that game. Point is a qb that can’t throw will not survive an onslaught of points on the otherside. Whoever CNS hires will point that out.
 

Maxbama

1st Team
Oct 16, 2012
393
0
0
Crossville, TN
Wow. All I can say is our fan base won't be satisfied with any answer. The title of the thread was pretty clear. Does anyone really think Daboll wasn't frustrated? To imply he was calling plays he knew Jalen couldn't execute is pretty ridiculous. Does anyone not think the OC isn't aware of the frustration of the Offense? Who would be in a better position to know the state of the offense than the OC. I predicted a few QB threads ago - that someone was going to load the box and take away our running game. Make us one dimensional like we do all the time. It happened. Jalen could not respond. Tua did respond. It's that simple. The offense played better with a QB who could see the field, be patient enough to let the receivers get open, put the ball right on target and scramble when he had to. The OC was able to open up the play book and UGA had no idea what we were going to do. Why continue to hash out "what ifs" and "he's a freshman who makes mistakes". To me, Jalen will have to win the starting job back in the spring. He has had another year to improve and at some point it will become clear that he has improved as much as he can and it just isn't going to be enough.
 

Bamabuzzard

FB Moderator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2004
30,570
18,349
237
48
Where ever there's BBQ, Bourbon & Football
I think absent a qb who has full control and understanding of the offense, he prefers the "safe qb's". But given the option of having a guy who can throw it all over the field (but has command and maturity in the offense) or a "safe qb". He'll take the former all day long and twice on Sunday. We saw it with AJ. Once Saban felt AJ had an understanding of the passing game, he turned him loose. I think that may have been what kept Saban from inserting Tua midway into the season. He saw his upside, but he wasn't at a comfort level with him to turn him loose in a game against a team's 1's. At that point you have to trust Saban's judgement over anyone else's on the team. His track record almost forces you to.


The truth is CNS favors safe qbs like Gmac over passers like Coker. Gmac qbs are great when your opposition doesn’t either have a great passer or great defense because you get to impose your will and have a low turnover margin. But in this day and age you need a qb that can play catch up if things go bad like a Coker qb can. But you have far more turnovers with that kind of qb.

I know people will point to the Ole Miss game last year and say Jalen brought us back, but there were a few NOTs and a bad Ole Miss defense involved in that game. Point is a qb that can’t throw will not survive an onslaught of points on the otherside. Whoever CNS hires will point that out.
 

bodiddle

All-SEC
May 14, 2006
1,338
0
0
How can he not know kiffin and still speak to kiffin on a visit?

Tua and Galu were well aware of who Kiffin was during recruiting even though Tosh took the lead on him. You are just trying hard to not believe that perhaps CNS and Daboll were fighting over qbs all year and there was truth to Kiffin’s remarks about Tua leaving.
He spoke to kiffin because he was introduced to him. Huh?

I am not trying hard to not believe anything. What I don't believe is that kiffin knew anymore about what Tua was going to do than anyone else.
 

TitleWave

All-American
Dec 3, 2012
3,171
828
132
Simpatico with your every syllable, and also congratulating you on the handle - of particular import that you ain't "DabollTide"...

This call looks obvious 10 minutes after a miracle win. But rewind the game to the moment Tua threw an INT, and close the game out at 20-7, and it does not look so good. Saban has often said "it was a good call because it worked" or "well, it didnt work, so I would have liked to try something else".

Philosophically, you either go with your steady hand that isnt going to lose you the game, or you go with the hot hand that needs to win it. Jalen is a decorated veteran, a steady hand, and like buying IBM, nobody ever got fired for going with that.

I've seen articles titled "should Saban have played Tua earlier"? This is a safe article to write to make yourself look smart. But the great ones just seem to know when to make the call. You should read about Neil Armstrong, during an early space flight his vehicle went into a death spiral. I bet only one in a hundred million people could have that sprung on them and they do the right thing. Making the call and doing the right thing under pressure is a big deal, it's what separates the article-writers from the championship-winners.
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,306
31,375
187
South Alabama
He spoke to kiffin because he was introduced to him. Huh?

I am not trying hard to not believe anything. What I don't believe is that kiffin knew anymore about what Tua was going to do than anyone else.
Even though Phil Savage said something similar on the Round table the day after the national championship.
 

Chukker Veteran

Hall of Fame
Feb 6, 2001
10,594
5,067
287
I think absent a qb who has full control and understanding of the offense, he prefers the "safe qb's". But given the option of having a guy who can throw it all over the field (but has command and maturity in the offense) or a "safe qb". He'll take the former all day long and twice on Sunday. We saw it with AJ. Once Saban felt AJ had an understanding of the passing game, he turned him loose. I think that may have been what kept Saban from inserting Tua midway into the season. He saw his upside, but he wasn't at a comfort level with him to turn him loose in a game against a team's 1's. At that point you have to trust Saban's judgement over anyone else's on the team. His track record almost forces you to.
It sounds to me like you haven't declared Saban's judgement is shot, out the window, and still have confidence in his decision making.

I'm amazed at our fan base, we go from a valid discussion of whether this season was Saban's best job coaching yet to discussing how slow Saban was to see what so many others could.

I mentioned it upstream...it's possible Saban was considering factors that even those with the closest contact with the team weren't aware of. It goes back to whatBuzzard suggested... Saban has earned the benefit of the doubt.
 

Redwood Forrest

Hall of Fame
Sep 19, 2003
11,042
907
237
76
Boaz, AL USA
I am trying to understand this situation with the OC. Why hire a big name guy with lots of experience to be the OC if you are not going to take his input? Why not just give it someone already there who wants a promotion and a pay raise and will ask you what plays to run and say "yes sir" to your every word?
 

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
63,414
67,193
462
crimsonaudio.net
I am trying to understand this situation with the OC. Why hire a big name guy with lots of experience to be the OC if you are not going to take his input?
Who is to say Saban didn't take Daboll's input?

I like Daboll, wish he had stayed, but let's be honest - he was the TE coach at NE because he pretty much bombed as an OC in the NFL. Maybe he'll do better with the Bills - I wish him well - but to act like he needed to get out from Saban's oppressive thumb when CNS salvaged his reputation as an OC is a bit silly, imo.

It's not like teams were beating down the door to hire Daboll when Saban gave him a shot. And while there's no way of knowing, I feel pretty confident in suggesting Daboll would still be the TE coach with the Pats if Saban hadn't given him a chance...

So again, I wish Daboll well, but I trust Saban.
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,306
31,375
187
South Alabama
It sounds to me like you haven't declared Saban's judgement is shot, out the window, and still have confidence in his decision making.

.
Noone is saying that his judgement is out the window. We are arguing that there is something to this story.



I'm amazed at our fan base, we go from a valid discussion of whether this season was Saban's best job coaching yet to discussing how slow Saban was to see what so many others could.

.
Again No one is saying that he was slow to see it. We are just saying that Daboll and him had disagreements on who should be qb and it led to "frustrations"
 

RTR91

Super Moderator
Nov 23, 2007
39,407
6
0
Prattville

Redwood Forrest

Hall of Fame
Sep 19, 2003
11,042
907
237
76
Boaz, AL USA
Who is to say Saban didn't take Daboll's input?

I like Daboll, wish he had stayed, but let's be honest - he was the TE coach at NE because he pretty much bombed as an OC in the NFL. Maybe he'll do better with the Bills - I wish him well - but to act like he needed to get out from Saban's oppressive thumb when CNS salvaged his reputation as an OC is a bit silly, imo.

It's not like teams were beating down the door to hire Daboll when Saban gave him a shot. And while there's no way of knowing, I feel pretty confident in suggesting Daboll would still be the TE coach with the Pats if Saban hadn't given him a chance...

So again, I wish Daboll well, but I trust Saban.
That makes sense to me. If I were hiring a big name OC I would consider his input seriously. I think Coach Saban would also, but for some reason did not or Daboll is making it up.
 

theballguy

Hall of Fame
Nov 5, 2012
6,268
1,083
187
Roll Tide Roll, Colorado USA
It doesn't matter what Daboll wanted or thought to be quite honest. It is pure speculation that the Tua we saw in the second half of the NCG would be the Tua we would have gotten if he would have been inserted into the LSU or Miss St games.
I think he would have done well against any of the teams but may have struggled against LSU and Auburn. He was great in the NC. I mean lights out! But there are still going to be some defenses he may struggle with. In my mind, LSU has handled QB's like that very well. Lucky for us though, they have Zero offense and appear to be inept at even finding a coordinator/analyst that can help them with that. For someone who is mind-numblingly stupid, Ed appears to have an ego and can't get along with Canada (who I'm sure has an ego as well but smart people usually do).
 

Chukker Veteran

Hall of Fame
Feb 6, 2001
10,594
5,067
287
Noone is saying that his judgement is out the window. We are arguing that there is something to this story.





Again No one is saying that he was slow to see it. We are just saying that Daboll and him had disagreements on who should be qb and it led to "frustrations"
I interpret what you are saying as your judgement is better than Saban's and I think that's ridiculous.

I always figure I've hit on the truth when someone hands out a neg.
 
Last edited:

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
63,414
67,193
462
crimsonaudio.net
That makes sense to me. If I were hiring a big name OC I would consider his input seriously. I think Coach Saban would also, but for some reason did not or Daboll is making it up.
Or he took it into consideration but felt his own judgement was better in this situation.

Arrogant? Perhaps.

Correct? Also perhaps.
 

81usaf92

TideFans Legend
Apr 26, 2008
35,306
31,375
187
South Alabama
I interpret what you are saying as your judgement is better than Saban's and I think that's ridiculous.

I always figure I've hit on the truth when someone hands out a neg.
What did I say negative about CNS? Saying that he favors game managers over potential game breakers when both are unproven isn’t exactly a debatable fact. Don’t see anything negative about that.
 

Latest threads

TideFans.shop : 2024 Madness!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.