Poll: How good was Bobby Bowden?

I bet he still has nightmares about kicks going wide right and wide left.

I’d have to say Bowden is certainly top 10 worthy. They were stupidly loaded with NFL talent from ‘87-‘00 run and destroyed teams.

TideEngineer08 said:

One more comment as I die on this hill (unless Selma comes along and sets me on fire again). I don’t want to eliminate Bowden from any list of greats. He’s there for sure. The hang up I have is simple and it’s what B1G says in the end of his post. And by the way, I don’t think Bryant and Saban are alone. I go back to Rockne, who was setting a torrid pace for over a decade and was killed at 43 in a plane crash.

Anyway, enough from me. I’ve more than said my piece.

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Bamabuzzard said:

Don't go dying just yet. We've already stomped a mudhole in you, we're just needing to walk it dry. Then you can get back to dying on the hill.

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I picked above average, but I feel like there should be a category between above average and great. I think he needed another title or two for me to say great, and I also think he benefited from playing in a weak conference, but finishing in the top five for that many consecutive years is a little more than above average.

Remember when Florida vs Fl State and Florida State vs Miami were the biggest games of the year?

crimsonaudio said:

Yah, it's just different.

Now you HAVE to beat two top 4 teams in back to back games - something that was never the requirement before. I'd say it's easier to have a shot now than it was pre-playoffs as you only have to make the top 4 to get that shot, whereas before you had to make the top two. But that's balanced by the fact that you now have to play two of the best teams in the country in order to raise the trophy.

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This and this. More chance for error but harder once you get there. You can't play the 8th best team and be crowned the champ now and you can be ranked number 4 and win the the championship.

I have to put Bowden in the "great" category.

A great HC that could've been greater..

Bamabuzzard said:

I'll also add we shouldn't downplay the scholarship limits that are now in play that weren't back in Bryant's day. Bryant recruited some kids simply so "the other school" wouldn't get them. Imagine giving Saban an additional 40 scholarships to give out that would otherwise end up at competing schools and being one of that school's best players. In essence he could recruit 85 players he was going to beat you with on the field. Then recruit an additional 40 very talented players to ride the bench in order to keep you from having access to them. Bryant is one of the greatest of all time and probably would be just as great if he was alive and coaching in today's landscape. But Saban has had to navigate an entirely different obstacle course than Bryant did.

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The rules are the same for each coach during their era. The great coaches just do it better than the other ones. Coach Bryant could sign as many players as any other coach could at the time. And coach Saban is competing under the same rules in his own era and doing it better than anyone else, just like Coach Bryant did in his time.

bamablood6 said:

The rules are the same for each coach during their era. The great coaches just do it better than the other ones. Coach Bryant could sign as many players as any other coach could at the time. And coach Saban is competing under the same rules in his own era and doing it better than anyone else, just like Coach Bryant did in his time.

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True, but that doesn't change his point. I sincerely believe that Saban would dominate in any era at a school like Alabama. His process is so fundamentally sound that it transcends eras.

bamablood6 said:

The rules are the same for each coach during their era. The great coaches just do it better than the other ones. Coach Bryant could sign as many players as any other coach could at the time. And coach Saban is competing under the same rules in his own era and doing it better than anyone else, just like Coach Bryant did in his time.

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The rules may be the same for each coach in his particular era, but they're not ACROSS eras, which is why I emphasized CONTEXT.

Bobby Bowden IS an all-time great NCAA college football coach. Period. It's not even a debatable proposition. During his era as coach only two other coaches even come close to his accomplishments, Osborne and Paterno, and Bowden was 6-2 against Osborne. (FTR, I do NOT consider Osborne an all-time great coach - a VERY GOOD one, yes, but one who benefited from an incredibly unique in-state setup in Nebraska).

westide said:

I bet he still has nightmares about kicks going wide right and wide left.

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I do too lol

4Q Basket Case said:

His record in the glory era was a bit inflated due to the overall weakness of the ACC. In his prime, he would have dominated the SEC....he just wouldn’t have had the ridiculous undefeated run that the weak opposition afforded.

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Once again, let's let the ACTUAL DATA speak:

selmaborntidefan said:

Let's see, here (per the USA Today College Football Encyclopedia) is the year-end rankings of opponent's winning pct (in essence, SOS) during FSU's run (they only rank the top 20)

1987 - 2
1988 - 7
1989 - 2
1990 - 19
1991 - 2
1992 - 5
1993 - 3
1994 - 2
1995 - 19
1996 - 3
1997 - 11
1998 - 2
1999 - 2
2000 - 2
2001 - 3

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And again:

1987 - beat SEC champ Auburn 34-6, beat Big 10 champ Mich St 3-3, beat Big 8 runner-up Nebraska 31-28, lost by 1 to national champ Miami
1988 - beat ACC champ Clemson by 3 and SEC Champ Auburn by 6, opened season against 3 straight teams that won 10 games in 12 game season
1989 - beat SEC co-champ Auburn by 8, national champ Miami by 14, Big 8 runner-up Nebraska by 24 (four opponents with 10 or more wins)
1990 - schedule noticeably weaker and nothing to really boast about though beat two 9-win teams (Fla, Penn St) to end season
1991 - beat WAC champ BYU by 16, Big 10 champ Michigan in Ann Arbor by 20, 10-win Syracuse (who beat Spurrier) by 32, narrow losses to Miami (national champs) and Florida (SEC champs), and edged SWC champ Texas A/M
1992 - lost to Miami by 3, thumped a good UNC team by 23, mauled the Florida team by 21 that Langham beat, and routed Big 8 champ Nebraska by 13 (and it wasn't that close, it rained)
1993 - beat 9-3 Clemson 57-0, 10-win UNC by 26, 9-win Miami by 18, SEC champ Florida by 12, Big Eight champ Nebraska by 2, lost by 7 to Notre Dame
1994 - beat 9-win VA by 24, 8-win UNC by 13, lost to Miami, beat 8-4 Duke by 17, tied and then beat SEC champ Florida in the Sugar Bowl
1995 - beat 9-win Clemson by 19, 8-win Miami by 24, lost 9-win UVA by 5 and SEC champ Florida by 11, beat 9-win Notre Dang
1996 - beat 10-win UNC by 13, beat 9-win Miami by 18, beat 8-win USM by 40, beat Florida by 3, lost to Florida by 32
1997 - beat 11-win UNC by 17, lost to 10-win Florida by 3, beat 10-win Ohio St by 17
1998 - beat 10-win Tech by 27, 11-win ATM by 9, 10-win Florida by 9, lost title game to Vols by 7
1999 - beat 9-win Miami by 10, 9-win Florida by 7, 11-win Va Tech by 17
2000 - beat 9-win G Tech by 5, 9-win Louisville by 31, 9-win Clemson by 47, lost to 11-win Miami by 3, beat 10-win Florida by 23, lost to OU by 11
2001 - went 3-3 against teams with 8 or more wins
2002 - went 2-4 against 9-win or above teams


Record vs above highly ranked foes: 51-20

Did not lost to an unranked foe from week two of the 1989 season (lost to Favre in week one) to week two of the 1998 season (NC State), four days after Mark McGwire hit number 62.

Florida State either won or LOST to the team that won the national championship in 1987, 1991, 1993, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001.


This whole idea FSU blasted a weak schedule has literally NO EVIDENCE to support it...

Selma - say more on this "unique in-state setup" at Nebraska.


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selmaborntidefan said:

Once again, let's let the ACTUAL DATA speak:



And again:

1987 - beat SEC champ Auburn 34-6, beat Big 10 champ Mich St 3-3, beat Big 8 runner-up Nebraska 31-28, lost by 1 to national champ Miami
1988 - beat ACC champ Clemson by 3 and SEC Champ Auburn by 6, opened season against 3 straight teams that won 10 games in 12 game season
1989 - beat SEC co-champ Auburn by 8, national champ Miami by 14, Big 8 runner-up Nebraska by 24 (four opponents with 10 or more wins)
1990 - schedule noticeably weaker and nothing to really boast about though beat two 9-win teams (Fla, Penn St) to end season
1991 - beat WAC champ BYU by 16, Big 10 champ Michigan in Ann Arbor by 20, 10-win Syracuse (who beat Spurrier) by 32, narrow losses to Miami (national champs) and Florida (SEC champs), and edged SWC champ Texas A/M
1992 - lost to Miami by 3, thumped a good UNC team by 23, mauled the Florida team by 21 that Langham beat, and routed Big 8 champ Nebraska by 13 (and it wasn't that close, it rained)
1993 - beat 9-3 Clemson 57-0, 10-win UNC by 26, 9-win Miami by 18, SEC champ Florida by 12, Big Eight champ Nebraska by 2, lost by 7 to Notre Dame
1994 - beat 9-win VA by 24, 8-win UNC by 13, lost to Miami, beat 8-4 Duke by 17, tied and then beat SEC champ Florida in the Sugar Bowl
1995 - beat 9-win Clemson by 19, 8-win Miami by 24, lost 9-win UVA by 5 and SEC champ Florida by 11, beat 9-win Notre Dang
1996 - beat 10-win UNC by 13, beat 9-win Miami by 18, beat 8-win USM by 40, beat Florida by 3, lost to Florida by 32
1997 - beat 11-win UNC by 17, lost to 10-win Florida by 3, beat 10-win Ohio St by 17
1998 - beat 10-win Tech by 27, 11-win ATM by 9, 10-win Florida by 9, lost title game to Vols by 7
1999 - beat 9-win Miami by 10, 9-win Florida by 7, 11-win Va Tech by 17
2000 - beat 9-win G Tech by 5, 9-win Louisville by 31, 9-win Clemson by 47, lost to 11-win Miami by 3, beat 10-win Florida by 23, lost to OU by 11
2001 - went 3-3 against teams with 8 or more wins
2002 - went 2-4 against 9-win or above teams


Record vs above highly ranked foes: 51-20

Did not lost to an unranked foe from week two of the 1989 season (lost to Favre in week one) to week two of the 1998 season (NC State), four days after Mark McGwire hit number 62.

Florida State either won or LOST to the team that won the national championship in 1987, 1991, 1993, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001.


This whole idea FSU blasted a weak schedule has literally NO EVIDENCE to support it...

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And they were not even in the ACC for much of the early part of this span, IIRC.

CrimsonProf said:

Selma - say more on this "unique in-state setup" at Nebraska.


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I'm at work right now Prof and that takes some time; there's a post around here where 81 touched on it. If I get a chance I'll link it in a bit and if not I'll send
it after work.

Long story short: the state of Nebraska at one time had one scholarship per county that they could give away that - pretty much invariably - went to a football
player to go to Lincoln and (key point here) DID NOT COUNT against the NCAA total. The NCAA rescinded that rule....oh, right about the time Osborne left I believe.

I'm NOT saying Osborne was not a GOOD coach; I'm saying he's not an all-time great.

Half as good as he thinks he is.

RedWave said:

And they were not even in the ACC for much of the early part of this span, IIRC.

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FSU's first year as a member of the ACC was 1991, but they didn't actually play ACC conference games until 1992. In 1991, they were non-compete
conference members in football.

Bobby Bowden, in fact, joked they may have picked the wrong time to join the wrong conference. Remember - Georgia Tech of the ACC was
the defending national champs in 1991.

selmaborntidefan said:

FSU's first year as a member of the ACC was 1991, but they didn't actually play ACC conference games until 1992. In 1991, they were non-compete
conference members in football.

Bobby Bowden, in fact, joked they may have picked the wrong time to join the wrong conference. Remember - Georgia Tech of the ACC was
the defending national champs in 1991.

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It is quite easy to forget that Georgia Tech were ever all that good, to be honest. I was mistaken though. I thought FSU did not start ACC football until a few years later than that. I remember them and Miami being independent for quite a long time, and then FSU joining the ACC while Miami went to the Big East. I thought it was really wrong that the three big time schools in the same state were all in different conferences.

Back to Bowden, I always liked the guy. For a long time, FSU was my other favorite team after Alabama. I hate that we missed our chance to get him as head coach, but I am pleased with where we are now, so the result was worth the journey. My only negative about Coach BB (besides his sons Terry and Tommy) is the way he acted at the end of the 1992 season, saying they deserved another shot at Miami more than we did. It soured me on him for a while, but looking back, I can't blame the guy for campaigning for his own team. I would have expected no less if it were our coach doing it.