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  1. #14
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Its the gun culture that needs to be changed. We live in a gun hugging culture. No other industrialized countries have gun violence like we do here. People here love their guns. Just look here for instance. How many threads devolve into a "look what I have" when talking about guns. People can keep their guns for protection but stop bragging about them and worshiping them. They are simply a useful tool and nothing else. They dont make your penis any larger or more potent. The NRA is the worst for perpetuating this problem.
    We changed attitudes in the 80s about drunk driving. We need to do the same now about guns.

  2. #15
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamaro View Post
    Its the gun culture that needs to be changed. We live in a gun hugging culture. No other industrialized countries have gun violence like we do here. People here love their guns. Just look here for instance. How many threads devolve into a "look what I have" when talking about guns. People can keep their guns for protection but stop bragging about them and worshiping them. They are simply a useful tool and nothing else. They dont make your penis any larger or more potent. The NRA is the worst for perpetuating this problem.
    We changed attitudes in the 80s about drunk driving. We need to do the same now about guns.
    lots of folks are convinced they are going to be benjamin martin one day leading the charge against the tyrannical government. or dirty harry cleaning up the riff raff
    Last edited by 92tide; February 15th, 2018 at 07:48 AM.
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  3. #16

    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    lots of folks are convinced they are going to be benjamin martin one day leading the charge against the tyrannical government. or dirty harry cleaning up the riff raff
    I'd bet about 99% of all gun owners simply want to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  4. #17
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamaro View Post
    Its the gun culture that needs to be changed. We live in a gun hugging culture. No other industrialized countries have gun violence like we do here. People here love their guns. Just look here for instance. How many threads devolve into a "look what I have" when talking about guns. People can keep their guns for protection but stop bragging about them and worshiping them. They are simply a useful tool and nothing else. They dont make your penis any larger or more potent. The NRA is the worst for perpetuating this problem.
    We changed attitudes in the 80s about drunk driving. We need to do the same now about guns.
    We all live in a world feeling that this will never happen to me or my children. We can't possibly comprehend how it feels for those parents who will be visiting with the coroner today. That is until it does happen to you and your world changes to one of pain and grief forever. As a parent it is too awful to comprehend until we are forced to do so.

    If parents could possibly comprehend it we would assure that there would be stricter controls on the purchase of assault and semi automatic weapons and the paraphernalia associated with mass killing.

    If parents could comprehend the loss of their child or spouse or themselves to a violent crime attitudes would change completely overnight.

    If we could comprehend the impact of violence in our society on families we would be concerned more with the health and education of our entire society versus spending more for military arms than practically every other country in the world combined.

  5. #18
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gtowntide View Post
    I'm not anti gun and I own 3, but I don't see why anyone needs an AR15.
    A not unreasonable position, but in out federal system, the question is not "does anyone have the right to own an AR-15?" but "have the sovereigns in our system delegated to the federal government to power to restrict that ownership?"
    The answer to the latter question is clearly "no."
    Perhaps the Democrats will feel the power of their convictions and propose an amendment to the Constitution to address this issue and then run on that as a party plank.

  6. #19
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    I'd bet about 99% of all gun owners simply want to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones.
    i think your number is probably a bit high. marketing for firearms is based greatly on selling the "tactical" (tacticool ) part of owning and carrying firearms, and it is not uncommon for the gop and nra to couch their advocacy in protecting one's self and family from tyrannical government and some imagined dystopic society. protecting family and loved ones (or hunting for that matter) does not require high powered military grade arms, or the ability to push high volumes of lead downrange in short amounts of time.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  7. #20
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    A not unreasonable position, but in out federal system, the question is not "does anyone have the right to own an AR-15?" but "have the sovereigns in our system delegated to the federal government to power to restrict that ownership?"
    The answer to the latter question is clearly "no."
    Perhaps the Democrats will feel the power of their convictions and propose an amendment to the Constitution to address this issue and then run on that as a party plank.
    how the "sovereigns" are making their voice heard

    link

    Most Americans support stronger gun laws — laws that would reduce deaths. But Republicans in Congress stand in the way. They fear alienating their primary voters and the National Rifle Association.

    Below are the top 10 career recipients of N.R.A. funding – through donations or spending to benefit the candidate – among both current House and Senate members, along with their statements about the Las Vegas massacre. These representatives have a lot to say about it. All the while, they refuse to do anything to avoid the next massacre.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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  8. #21

    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    i think your number is probably a bit high.
    Possibly, I simply thought about the incredible number of firearm owners I know and couldn't think of a single one who has fantasies about a breakdown in society or a hero complex.

    protecting family and loved ones (or hunting for that matter) does not require high powered military grade arms, or the ability to push high volumes of lead downrange in short amounts of time.
    I guess that all depends on who kicks in your front door. If three or four armed people broke into your home, I'm betting you'd understand why some feel the need for high capacity magazines.

    Further, if I may, let me add that unless / until everyone realizes that comments like 'high powered military grade arms' are emotional and quite silly in the context of what's available, we'll get nowhere. It's the same thing as those who constantly criticize Trump / Obama / whoever is in the WH - at some point, if you cannot speak in factual and unemotional terms when discussing a topic, you're only going to reach people who already agree with you.

    Let me finish with this - I'm not unwilling to discuss magazine limitations, etc. I think they're pointless, but again, they may work - I cannot see what the future holds. But I'm only willing to discuss these sorts of compromises if both sides are willing to dial down the rhetoric and speak in facts.

    Ultimately, we can point fingers all day, but those who wish to solve this problem via gun control laws need to explain exactly what they think needs to be done and how it will work in the real world. Working around 2A and the subsequent SCOTUS rulings makes that tough.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  9. #22

    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Perhaps the Democrats will feel the power of their convictions and propose an amendment to the Constitution to address this issue and then run on that as a party plank.
    Really, doesn't even have to be just Democrats - if people want this changed, they have to address 2A. There's just no way around it. While I'd love to see the government work to find a solution, I don't see it happening - it's a legal minefield.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  10. #23
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Possibly, I simply thought about the incredible number of firearm owners I know and couldn't think of a single one who has fantasies about a breakdown in society or a hero complex.


    I guess that all depends on who kicks in your front door. If three or four armed people broke into your home, I'm betting you'd understand why some feel the need for high capacity magazines.

    Further, if I may, let me add that unless / until everyone realizes that comments like 'high powered military grade arms' are emotional and quite silly in the context of what's available, we'll get nowhere. It's the same thing as those who constantly criticize Trump / Obama / whoever is in the WH - at some point, if you cannot speak in factual and unemotional terms when discussing a topic, you're only going to reach people who already agree with you.

    Let me finish with this - I'm not unwilling to discuss magazine limitations, etc. I think they're pointless, but again, they may work - I cannot see what the future holds. But I'm only willing to discuss these sorts of compromises if both sides are willing to dial down the rhetoric and speak in facts.

    Ultimately, we can point fingers all day, but those who wish to solve this problem via gun control laws need to explain exactly what they think needs to be done and how it will work in the real world. Working around 2A and the subsequent SCOTUS rulings makes that tough.
    "high powered military grade arms" is no sillier than civilians thinking they need tactical gear and training to survive in our day to day world.

    we can't explain "exactly" what we want to be done, because discussion is not really allowed. there is no one "exact" solution the same as there is no one "exact" problem and expecting/demanding such in the discussion of how to deal with an extremely complex (and deadly) issue is basically shutting discussion down.

    the massive increases in sales aren't because there are ton's of folks in our country who suddenly realized that they need a firearm to protect their family

    Last edited by 92tide; February 15th, 2018 at 09:11 AM.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

    - George Orwell

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.

    — Thomas Pynchon

  11. #24

    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    "high powered military grade arms" is no sillier than civilians thinking they need tactical gear and training to survive in our day to day world.
    Sure, but we're talking amongst people that don't fall into that group, I'm guessing. I know I don't. So if we can drop that silliness we can actually get somewhere in this discussion.

    we can't explain "exactly" what we want to be done, because discussion is not really allowed. there is no one "exact" solution the same as there is no one "exact" problem and expecting/demanding such in the discussion of how to deal with an extremely complex (and deadly) issue is basically shutting discussion down.
    So list the solutions - no one here is shutting down the discussion. I'm actually a multiple-firearm-owner with several AR pattern rifles that is willing to discuss compromises, but no one ever seems to be willing to put forth real, workable solutions - only pie-in-the-sky stuff like AUS, which we all know will not happen as long as 2A exists.

    the massive increases in sales aren't because there are ton's of folks in our country who suddenly realized that they need a firearm to protect their family
    Agreed. Lots of knee-jerk reactions to the false-fears that Obama (or some other D) was coming to take their guns. I get it, I've seen it. But again, acknowledging that does little to curb this violence.

    We have to figure out if it's a gun problem, a mental health problem, a societal problem, or some combination of the three. Unfortunately, every time this happens (and it's all too often now), we have the exact same cycle:
    - mass shooting
    - no discussion or real attempt to figure out the multifaceted reasons that this happens
    - knee-jerk proposal to ban a certain type of firearm, which is quickly dismissed
    - everything settles back into normalcy until the next mass shooting

    I'm as sick of it as anyone, so I'm willing to discuss solutions. But no one seems to have them, or the solutions they propose are as fantastical as the crazy dude thinking he's going to be Rambo when the government comes to collect his guns.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  12. #25
    BamaNation Hall of Fame cbi1972's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    I, for one, don't want the gun culture to go away.

    I don't want people to be freaked out when they see an ordinary citizen in a grocery store with a pistol in a holster.

    I don't want people to think that guns are for police and military.

    I don't want people to think "guns = bad"

    I don't want to see school shootings, either, but none of the "solutions" I see will stop them without unduly restricting what I consider to be a fundamental right.

    You haven't seen problems until you have seen an amoral government up against a citizenry without the power to resist.
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  13. #26
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Sure, but we're talking amongst people that don't fall into that group, I'm guessing. I know I don't. So if we can drop that silliness we can actually get somewhere in this discussion.


    So list the solutions - no one here is shutting down the discussion. I'm actually a multiple-firearm-owner with several AR pattern rifles that is willing to discuss compromises, but no one ever seems to be willing to put forth real, workable solutions - only pie-in-the-sky stuff like AUS, which we all know will not happen as long as 2A exists.


    Agreed. Lots of knee-jerk reactions to the false-fears that Obama (or some other D) was coming to take their guns. I get it, I've seen it. But again, acknowledging that does little to curb this violence.

    We have to figure out if it's a gun problem, a mental health problem, a societal problem, or some combination of the three. Unfortunately, every time this happens (and it's all too often now), we have the exact same cycle:
    - mass shooting
    - no discussion or real attempt to figure out the multifaceted reasons that this happens
    - knee-jerk proposal to ban a certain type of firearm, which is quickly dismissed
    - everything settles back into normalcy until the next mass shooting

    I'm as sick of it as anyone, so I'm willing to discuss solutions. But no one seems to have them, or the solutions they propose are as fantastical as the crazy dude thinking he's going to be Rambo when the government comes to collect his guns.
    i am a multiple firearm owner as well.

    we know this is a gun problem (and it is also a gun advocacy problem). it is happening no where else in the world. all of these other countries have mental health issues, societal issues, etc. firearms and ammo are entirely too easy for folks to get, especially in large quantities. (yes, i know this is a subjective statement). gun advocates are constantly trying to make it even easier. yes, guns are a "tool", but they are a tool that can easily provide someone with the ability to kill and maim large numbers of people with relatively minimal effort. someone with absolutely no training, knowledge, etc, can go out and buy an ar pattern rifle and massive amounts of ammo as quickly and easily as you can buy a radial arm saw and then can parade around armed in public. the jerk off that did this shooting (as with many of the others we have witnessed) legally purchased his rifle and the large amount of ammo he was carrying with him. we need to as a society deal with this.

    there are a lot of solutions available that do not infringe on the 2a - e.g. limits on purchases (guns and ammo), stricter background checks, limits on private sales, strict requirements on licensing for public carry (including required training, etc). would this solve every problem? no, as long as we have guns in our society, we will have gun violence. but it would go towards limiting the negative impacts. there are long lists of different solutions that are not going to limit the ability of folks to be able to protect their family and home (or hunt, or shoot recreationally, etc).
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

    - George Orwell

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.

    — Thomas Pynchon

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