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  1. #53
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    But that's not actually what happened - there were lots of people against that law, not just gun-rights advocates. Not that I expect the media to accurately portray it when they have the chance to print an incendiary headline instead...

    https://www.snopes.com/congress-gun-legal-mental/
    I'd already read that. I still think it was a step backwards and others along the same lines have been proposed. They've been pulled back because of the negative attention that move drew...
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  2. #54
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    i would imagine that the idiot that did the shooting yesterday considered the public school system a tyrannical government entity
    A bit of a stretch to try to include him in the right fringe...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

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  3. #55
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamaro View Post
    Its the image that it represents. Even if it has completely identical capabilities as a 'normal' looking rifle it would still attract the nuts because of the way it looks. Nuts feel more empowered with it.
    So, you think that, if you take the cosmetics away, this type of shooter will just say "Aw shucks," and give up?
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  4. #56
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    A bit of a stretch to try to include him in the right fringe...
    but when you present the idea to folks that guns are a guard against governmental tyranny, you can't assume that only like minded folks will agree with you about what constitutes tyranny. hell, there were folks on this board swearing up and down that we were the victims of tyranny because they had to sign up for healthcare.
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  5. #57
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bama_wayne1 View Post
    I agree, but they are just a semi auto rifle. The real significance of the AR platform is the ability to add accessories. For instance you can have peep sights and a scope and a laser sight at the same time. A standard 30 caliber deer gun has the equivalent power and looks nothing like a military weapon. I don't believe in committing acts of violence but shotguns in close quarter have a better chance of doing damage. That's why when special ops are on patrol they generally carry a rifle, shotgun and a pistol or two.
    and that is my point. guns and accessories are now being marketed as allowing you to be just like the special ops patrols. you too can be a tactical warrior bad arse. we see a similar mindset in the militarization of our police as well.
    Last edited by 92tide; February 15th, 2018 at 11:51 AM.
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  6. #58
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Well, to be fair, the AR has gotten a lot of attention lately (due to so many mass murderers choosing them), but the reality is far more people are killed annually with pistols than with rifles.

    I'm NOT saying this as if there's not terrible consequences to this mass shooting - its HORRIBLE and my heart breaks for the families - but in the grand scheme of things, this mass shooting doesn't matter. It's literally a tiny blip on the stat sheet of gun violence in the US. And very, very few of the gun deaths in the US come from anything other than pistols.

    This is why I say if you want to change things, we need to really address the fundamental issues. I can almost guarantee someone will promote a poorly named 'assault weapons ban' in congress after this - it always happens - but no one seems to care that these rifles aren't the root issue. Why is the US so violent? Something is different here, and it's not just the number of guns.

    I'm not suggesting that some sort of modification of federal gun laws won't help, but it rings hollow when the US averages twice as many people killed every day in the US (36.4 deaths/day, excluding suicide). These mass shootings are horrible, but account for a tiny fraction of those killed annually in the US. Something is broken, and I want to know what it is - and it's not just gun laws....
    i know what you are getting at, but this mass shooting matters in the grand scheme for the 17 families that lost their kids, and the hundreds of other kids and teachers and their families that will have to spend the rest of their lives dealing with this. there are myriad issues and problems going on and there will not be one single solution to deal with them all and trying to address issues with mass shootings does not preclude dealing with other issues.

    i think handguns need much stricter regulation as well. in georgia at least, you don't need much more than a pulse and $70 or so to get a concealed carry permit. and there are a lot of folks that think that is too much regulation.
    Last edited by 92tide; February 15th, 2018 at 11:54 AM.
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  7. #59
    BamaNation Hall of Fame cbi1972's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    but when you present the idea to folks that guns are a guard against governmental tyranny, you can't assume that only like minded folks will agree with you about what constitutes tyranny. hell, there were folks on this board swearing up and down that we were the victims of tyranny because they had to sign up for healthcare.
    There are lots of different kinds of tyranny, and an appropriate response to each.

    An overly intrusive Census questionnaire is a very minor type, and the appropriate method of resistance is to refuse to cooperate by not filling it out.

    No-knock warrants are a more serious type, and the appropriate response is debatable, but there is a case to be made for self-defense.

    Then there are all the uncontrovertibly egregious violations that people say could never happen here, which widespread firearm ownership makes sure of, and action against which will be either classified as treason or patriotism, depending on your view.

    To lump them all together is to commit the fallacy of equivocation.
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  8. #60

    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    i know what you are getting at, but this mass shooting matters in the grand scheme for the 17 families that lost their kids, and the hundreds of other kids and teachers and their families that will have to spend the rest of their lives dealing with this.
    I get it, again, I feel for them. I wish I could *blink* and make this tragedy disappear.

    My point is if we really want to fix gun violence, we need to dig deeper than the superficial. yes, the families and this community will be rocked, some will be forever changed, but this horrible act. But emotional reactions shouldn't dictate policy - we need to make sure we're addressing the issue, not just throwing a bandaid on a gushing wound.

    there are myriad issues and problems going on and there will not be one single solution to deal with them all and trying to address issues with mass shootings does not preclude dealing with other issues.
    Agreed. My point is we need a systematic set of answers. All to often we react to something and it results in unintended consequences. We as a country need to work to gather to figure out why this is happening and what solutions are viable.

    Sure, we can ban 'semiautomatic rifles that look like military weapons', but we all know these broken souls who kill people will simply use the next available tool. And we also know that a ban on these rifles will have very little affect on the overall gun violence numbers in the US.

    i think handguns need much stricter regulation as well. in georgia at least, you don't need much more than a pulse and $70 or so to get a concealed carry permit. and there are a lot of folks that think that is too much regulation.
    Sure, I know folks who think the 2A has absolute, that citizens should be allowed to have anything they can carry. I don't feel his way, personally, but I do think we have to tread lightly when we're talking about something that has been enumerated as an individual right.

    The real question no one wants to discuss is what is wrong in our society now? Heck, half the kids in my HS had hunting rifles hanging in the rear windows of their pickups -16 year-old kids with rifles that would go hunting after school, yet I never once heard of any gun violence. Something has changed, as access to firearms is more difficult today than it's ever been in the US, yet these mass shootings are becoming more common. We need to answer the 'why' before we start trying to fix it, otherwise, we're just bandaging up someone who is bleeding out with trying to determine why they're bleeding in the first place.
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  9. #61
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cbi1972 View Post
    There are lots of different kinds of tyranny, and an appropriate response to each.

    An overly intrusive Census questionnaire is a very minor type, and the appropriate method of resistance is to refuse to cooperate by not filling it out.

    No-knock warrants are a more serious type, and the appropriate response is debatable, but there is a case to be made for self-defense.

    Then there are all the uncontrovertibly egregious violations that people say could never happen here, which widespread firearm ownership makes sure of, and action against which will be either classified as treason or patriotism, depending on your view.

    To lump them all together is to commit the fallacy of equivocation.
    i guess we are guaranteed that everyone will respond appropriately to these "levels of tyranny".
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

    - George Orwell

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they dont have to worry about the answers.

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  10. #62
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Just some statistics for perspective as the trees seem to often get in the way of the forest.

    *numbers are rounded*

    13,000 homicide deaths by firearm last year

    65,000 drug overdose deaths last year
    In comparison, more than 58,000 US soldiers died in the entire Vietnam War, nearly 55,000 Americans died of car crashes at the peak of such deaths in 1972, more than 43,000 died due to HIV/AIDS during that epidemic's peak in 1995, and nearly 40,000 died of guns during the peak of those deaths in 1993.
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...se-deaths-2016

    38,000 deaths due to car crashes last year
    Initial estimates, which may be revised when more information becomes available, indicate that 38,300 people were killed on U.S. roads in 2015, and roughly 4.4 million sustained injuries that resulted in medical consultations. The number of deaths rose 8 percent from 2014, compared with a less than 0.5 percent increase between 2013 and 2014 and a 3 percent drop the previous year.

    We havent seen a jump like this in 50 years, says Deborah A.P. Hersman, president and CEO of the NSC. Its a big change. This is not statistically insignificant. And were talking about human lives.
    http://www.newsweek.com/2015-brought...0-years-427759

    45,000 deaths due to suicide per year https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

    I hope we can all agree that all of these deaths are tragic. I also hope that we can agree that there is a limited number of resources available to combat these problems (I know vast disagreement on the specific amount of resources and in what manner they would be best used, but still a finite number).

    It seems to me that the most logical choice would be to address the issues that cause many times more deaths than firearms and are rising both in actual numbers and by percentage and then address the deaths from firearms issue which is smaller in number, percentage and with rates that have been falling for decades. Yes, mass shootings get all the headlines and emotional outrage, but numbers aren't emotional and if one's goal is to save lives, then there are much more pressing issues that also can be addressed more easily than the firearm issue.

  11. #63

    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Again, I'm open to discussing potential changes in the law, but when stories like this surface, it makes it more difficult to make the case that we need more laws - looks like in this case we need better law enforcement: FBI may have known months in advance that Florida shooting suspect had plans to be a “professional school shooter”
    Oderint dum metuant - Lucius Accius

  12. #64
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    This is one of my fears and it's largely media-driven. I'd bet 95% of the public now believes there is something unique and deadly about an AR-15, which is basically just a .224 (or similar) semi-automatic rifle. There is one exception but it's critical - the AR-15 and similar rifles will accept large magazines. We limited mags once and it worked to some degree. It's not perfect, because mags can be exchanged quickly. There wasn't the political will even to keep that limitation in place. The technology-based assault weapon ban, which also depended on cosmetics, was largely ineffective. The reversing a year ago of the inclusion of mentally ill in the data base was a huge step backwards...
    This is, to my mind, the heart of the issue. The folks committing these mass murders tend to be mentally ill (go figure). If people known to be mentally ill had at least a temporary hold on owning a fire-arm, at least until a mental health care professional can examine them and clear them, that would be great.
    A hot line folks could call in and warn cops/mental health professionals about guys like yesterday's shooter might have eliminated this shooting. Lots of acquaintances believed this guy was suspect and if cops had known, maybe the gun seller would not have sold the gun.
    The problem would be who determines who must be screened. It does not take a lot of imagination to imagine an estranged wife in the midst of ugly divorces would threaten her ex-husband with accusing them of being mentally ill, just to inconvenience him. Or a cop whose wife was a psychiatrist might say anybody who wants to buy a gun is mentally ill and must see his wife and get cleared before buying. I don't know how to keep the mentally ill from getting guns without having a system that can be abused.

  13. #65
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    I get it, again, I feel for them. I wish I could *blink* and make this tragedy disappear.

    My point is if we really want to fix gun violence, we need to dig deeper than the superficial. yes, the families and this community will be rocked, some will be forever changed, but this horrible act. But emotional reactions shouldn't dictate policy - we need to make sure we're addressing the issue, not just throwing a bandaid on a gushing wound.


    Agreed. My point is we need a systematic set of answers. All to often we react to something and it results in unintended consequences. We as a country need to work to gather to figure out why this is happening and what solutions are viable.

    Sure, we can ban 'semiautomatic rifles that look like military weapons', but we all know these broken souls who kill people will simply use the next available tool. And we also know that a ban on these rifles will have very little affect on the overall gun violence numbers in the US.


    Sure, I know folks who think the 2A has absolute, that citizens should be allowed to have anything they can carry. I don't feel his way, personally, but I do think we have to tread lightly when we're talking about something that has been enumerated as an individual right.

    The real question no one wants to discuss is what is wrong in our society now? Heck, half the kids in my HS had hunting rifles hanging in the rear windows of their pickups -16 year-old kids with rifles that would go hunting after school, yet I never once heard of any gun violence. Something has changed, as access to firearms is more difficult today than it's ever been in the US, yet these mass shootings are becoming more common. We need to answer the 'why' before we start trying to fix it, otherwise, we're just bandaging up someone who is bleeding out with trying to determine why they're bleeding in the first place.
    what i am saying is that dealing with high capacity weapons that seem to be the weapon of choice in many of these mass shootings is only one of the many things that need to be dealt with to address gun violence. i realize mass shootings are a relatively small number of the total gun casualties, but they are still horrific and need to be dealt with. there is nowhere else in the world where mass shootings happen with the regularity that they do here.

    the something (or at least one thing) that has changed since i was a kid is that guns are being sold like a consumer good which you should buy that can be tricked out like a motorcycle or you can get the latest greatest technology like with your big screen hdtv or whole house sound system.
    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

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    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they dont have to worry about the answers.

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