The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

cbi1972 · Feb 22, 2018

Barry Goldwater said:
I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is "needed" before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents' "interests," I shall reply that I was informed that their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

day-day · Feb 22, 2018

I'm more okay with raising the age than with increasing the waiting period by more than a couple of days. As an example, if a gun is damaged and needs to be replaced during hunting season or a different type of gun is needed with a new hunting opportunity, the season could be over if the waiting period is 3 months. I think it would have little impact on the objective and it will not significantly improve the chances of detecting that someone is psycho.

I don't think the age thing has anything to do with military.

I could suddenly get an opportunity to travel to Africa and I might want a specific gun to hunt lions with.

crimsonaudio · Feb 22, 2018

day-day said:
I'm more okay with raising the age than with increasing the waiting period by more than a couple of days. As an example, if a gun is damaged and needs to be replaced during hunting season or a different type of gun is needed with a new hunting opportunity, the season could be over if the waiting period is 3 months. I think it would have little impact on the objective and it will not significantly improve the chances of detecting that someone is psycho.

Or an abused wife has a restraining order on her husband and feels the need to protect herself. SOCTUS has already ruled that the police are not required to offer individual protection (Castle Rock v. Gonzales), so how would she protect herself?

day-day · Feb 22, 2018

crimsonaudio said:
Or an abused wife has a restraining order on her husband and feels the need to protect herself. SOCTUS has already ruled that the police are not required to offer individual protection (Castle Rock v. Gonzales), so how would she protect herself?

One point mentioned by MattinBama was to allow quicker access when there was a safety concern so I ignored this aspect but yes, a delay in these types of situations would be bad.

cbi1972 · Feb 22, 2018

day-day said:
One point mentioned by MattinBama was to allow quicker access when there was a safety concern so I ignored this aspect but yes, a delay in these types of situations would be bad.

Having to justify exercise of constitutional rights means they are no longer rights at all.
Sheriffs of counties in "may-issue" states routinely disregard our safety concerns.

MattinBama · Feb 22, 2018

cbi1972 said:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2012/10/do-you-know-constitution-unconstitutional

By the way, did anyone ever tell you that the Constitution is unconstitutional? Yep, the whole thing. Or at least its ratification was illegal. This is not a joke, except to the degree that it is.

...

Here’s the deal. The Articles of Confederation were drafted by the Continental Congress around the time of the Declaration of Independence and ratified by all 13 colonies/states by 1781. It explicitly declared itself to be the “perpetual” form of government for the newly independent nation.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

BamaJama17 · Feb 22, 2018

Jon said:
it's their way of saying mostly white without seeming like racists

Ohh no not the dreadful race card or more like your way of saying “I have to resort to that because I can’t properly debate the other side”. Being a homogenous country having its population (same religion, language, values, and culture etc...) all more or less on the same page and not experiencing the same problems a multicultural society does like the USA. Take for instance Japan, they have some of the lowest crime rate in the world and they are also not wait for it.....****NOT WHITE****

2003TIDE said:
He sounds like a LEO doesn't he?

Well I do work in law enforcement.....but I sound like someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

CajunCrimson · Feb 22, 2018

BamaJama17 said:
Ohh no not the dreadful race card or more like your way of saying “I have to resort to that because I can’t properly debate the other side”. Being a homogenous country having its population (same religion, language, values, and culture etc...) all more or less on the same page and not experiencing the same problems a multicultural society does like the USA. Take for instance Japan, they have some of the lowest crime rate in the world and they are also not wait for it.....****NOT WHITE****

Well I do work in law enforcement.....but I sound like someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

It's amazing what those who have little to no training believe they know VS someone who is trained as a professional....

Almost like the Football Board during Game threads....

BamaJama17 · Feb 22, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
It's amazing what those who have little to no training believe they know VS someone who is trained as a professional....

Almost like the Football Board during Game threads....

Well I mean I actually deal with real criminals (level 6 maximum security prison and highest and only one in Alabama) in person every week for 12-16 hours a day well night because that’s the shift I work. I mean heaven forbid I have some kinda insight of how they think and act.

BamaJama17 · Feb 22, 2018

CharminTide said:
I'm never one to bet against political nihilism, but that CNN town hall last night had to have been pretty uncomfortable for the GOP/NRA. These high schoolers are much more coherent, passionate, and organized than elementary school kids, so I wouldn't put money on this issue disappearing as quickly as it has in the past.

I think instead of doing a walk-out, those high schoolers (and any others nationwide that will be joining them) should just go door to door and demand all gun owners hand over their “Assault Weapons” if they wanna show how courageous they really are.

cbi1972 · Feb 22, 2018

BamaJama17 said:
Take for instance Japan, they have some of the lowest crime rate in the world and they are also not wait for it.....****NOT WHITE****

The secret of Japan’s mysteriously low crime rate

What are most disturbing are however arguments that the low crime is partially a result of a police culture that are obsessed with keeping crime statistics low. Former detectives claim that police are unwilling to investigate homicides unless there is a clear suspect and frequently label unnatural deaths as suicides without performing autopsies. Coincidentally, Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world.

The same culture of honor and shame that brought the world Fukushima has brought Japan a 99% conviction rate in criminal court.
There is more to Japanese crime rates than meets the eye.

BamaJama17 · Feb 22, 2018

cbi1972 said:
The secret of Japan’s mysteriously low crime rate

The same culture of honor and shame that brought the world Fukushima has brought Japan a 99% conviction rate in criminal court.
There is more to Japanese crime rates than meets the eye.

They aren’t perfect but they also would have not have blown it on the OJ Simpson case or acquitted Kate Steinle’s killer that never should have been in the country to begin with. Aside from the 99% conviction rate and despite the many chinks they need to fix, the crime rate is still very low.

CajunCrimson · Feb 22, 2018

BamaJama17 said:
They aren’t perfect but they also would have not have blown it on the OJ Simpson case or acquitted Kate Steinle’s killer that never should have been in the country to begin with. Aside from the 99% conviction rate and despite the many chinks they need to fix, the crime rate is still very low.

I knew a gentleman from Tokyo that flat out told me....you could leave a briefcase on the sidewalk on a busy street, and come back the next day and it would still be there. It's just a different culture.

cbi1972 · Feb 22, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
I knew a gentleman from Tokyo that flat out told me....you could leave a briefcase on the sidewalk on a busy street, and come back the next day and it would still be there. It's just a different culture.

Washington and Lee University is like this

bobstod · Feb 22, 2018

NationalTitles17 said:
I see we've gone full bore into the angry impasse the other guy just won't see the "facts" the way I see them phase...

In other words, when you start insulting others and saying their concerns are illegitimate excuses you do more to shut down conversation.

If we are going to make even the smallest changes then it is not going to be easy. It will be hard work. Yet some of you just want "the other side" to shut up and sit down. I've even seen you say that asking for detailed plans and logical rationale that the idea will actually work is actually a surreptitious way to close off debate.

It has become ridiculous, but it's not surprising. This is how it ends every time. And you can point fingers at the strictly Pro 2A side and even those of us open to better enforcement of current law and some limited new law(s) if they will make our world safer. But when you stifle debate by being obstinate, insults, and laziness then maybe a look in the mirror is in order.

The above is not intended for any one person(s) but I have seen it crop up here and it's all over social and other media. Everyone goes back to their safe spaces of cliches and nothing gets done. We quit treating each other like people instead of the opposition and nothing gets done. We insult each other and nothing changes.

And mind you, NO ONE can know for sure what will work short of total confiscation and destruction of every gun in the world.

/rant

I hope I have been neither insulting nor name-calling; but I did state that requiring proof that certain gun restrictions will work is an impossible barrier. So here you accuse me of trying to shut you up. Yet at the end of your rant you restate my argument as if it supports your position. We don't know for sure what will work, but if we compare ourselves to countries where gun ownership is rare we find that homicide by firearm is extremely rare.

Special K · Feb 22, 2018

bobstod said:
I hope I have been neither insulting nor name-calling; but I did state that requiring proof that certain gun restrictions will work is an impossible barrier. So here you accuse me of trying to shut you up. Yet at the end of your rant you restate my argument as if it supports your position. We don't know for sure what will work, but if we compare ourselves to countries where gun ownership is rare we find that homicide by firearm is extremely rare.

Ya think? If we outlaw cars we'll never have to worry about drunk drivers ever killing anyone again either. I'll PM my address to you so you can send me your keys and a location where I can pick up your vehicle.

cbi1972 · Feb 22, 2018

cbi1972 said:
You will forgive me if I reject the notion that it cannot happen here. It is not a stretch to think that some group of people might be similarly dehumanized in the future.

World leaders abandoning human rights: Regressive policies and hateful rhetoric by Trump, Putin and Xi undermining rights globally, Amnesty International says.

World leaders are undermining human rights for millions of people with regressive policies and hate-filled rhetoric, but their actions have ignited global protest movements in response, a rights group said.

US President Donald Trump, Russian leader Vladimir Putin, and China's President Xi Jinping were among a number of politicians who rolled out regressive policies in 2017, according to Amnesty International's annual human rights report published on Thursday.

The human rights body also mentioned the leaders of Egypt, the Philippines and Venezuela.

"The spectres of hatred and fear now loom large in world affairs, and we have few governments standing up for human rights in these disturbing times," Salil Shetty, Amnesty's secretary-general, said.

"Instead, leaders such as el-Sisi, Duterte, Maduro, Putin, Trump and Xi are callously undermining the rights of millions."

Amnesty's The State of the World's Human Rights report cites Trump's controversial travel ban prohibiting entrants to the US from six Muslim-majority countries, Venezuelan authorities' use of force against demonstrators and unlawful killings in the Philippines' anti-drug war as evidence of policies resulting in an international regression on human rights.
.
.
.
"Defenders of human rights around the world can look to the people of the United States to stand with them, even where the US government has failed," Huang said.

"Activists from across the country remind us that the fight for universal human rights has always been waged and won by people in their communities."

Bamaro · Feb 22, 2018

Special K said:
Ya think? If we outlaw cars we'll never have to worry about drunk drivers ever killing anyone again either. I'll PM my address to you so you can send me your keys and a location where I can pick up your vehicle.

reductio ad absurdum

NationalTitles18 · Feb 22, 2018

bobstod said:
I hope I have been neither insulting nor name-calling; but I did state that requiring proof that certain gun restrictions will work is an impossible barrier. So here you accuse me of trying to shut you up. Yet at the end of your rant you restate my argument as if it supports your position. We don't know for sure what will work, but if we compare ourselves to countries where gun ownership is rare we find that homicide by firearm is extremely rare.

I think you may have misread what I said if you think I accused you of trying to shut me up.

crimsonaudio · Feb 22, 2018

bobstod said:
I hope I have been neither insulting nor name-calling; but I did state that requiring proof that certain gun restrictions will work is an impossible barrier. So here you accuse me of trying to shut you up. Yet at the end of your rant you restate my argument as if it supports your position. We don't know for sure what will work, but if we compare ourselves to countries where gun ownership is rare we find that homicide by firearm is extremely rare.

The problem we have here are twofold:
1- if one wishes to impinge upon our enumerated rights, one needs to have proof this reduction in freedom will pay dividends or the discussion is moot, and
2- the comparison to countries that are not constitutional republics with the equivalent of the 2A is silly - it's like comparing the opportunities of one entrenched in poverty with that of one with privilege. SCOTUS has determined 2A is an individual right, something that does not exist in any other country I'm aware of, so comparing the US to a country without this right is silly, unless you believe that somehow 2A is going away.

Not sure how this point has not been clearly made so far, but there you go.

The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

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