Alabama QB competition article

My comment was really to underscore how uncommon our style of champion is in college football now. The sport has become much more NFL-like where elite QB play is the discriminator between contenders and champions. We're atypical. Our expectations for a quarterback on a national title caliber team isn't like what it is for everyone else. Almost every other program needs a guy with Tua Tagovailoa's projections just to get in position to win a title.

KrAzY3 said:

But, we are talking about Saban teams.

Explain this one. If a great passer is a sure fire trip to the title game, how is it that 3 out of 4 of the best Saban Alabama quarterback seasons didn't even make the title game?

How is it that Blake Sims, AJ, and GMac as a senior could fall short? They all threw the ball well, they all had great seasons passing, and I mean heck it's Alabama right? How can Alabama+a lot of passing yards not equal a championship? They didn't though. Blake threw for 3,500 yards his senior year, AJ cracked 3,000 yards for the first time his senior year, and GMac was 13 yards short of 3,000 his senior year...

I wasn't trying to make a benchmark when I pointed to top 100 in passing yards, just make a point that a prolific passing offense is not a sure fire way to win a championship or go undefeated.

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Why does it still seem like you are doing all you can to argue the point that Jalen should get the starting nod? I know you have stated somewhere in this thread or maybe another that you think it should be Tua. But you still seem to want to present a case for it being Jalen instead. I mean, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just think you should pick one and stay with it.

rgw said:

My comment was really to underscore how uncommon our style of champion is in college football now. The sport has become much more NFL-like where elite QB play is the discriminator between contenders and champions. We're atypical. Our expectations for a quarterback on a national title caliber team isn't like what it is for everyone else. Almost every other program needs a guy with Tua Tagovailoa's projections just to get in position to win a title.

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That is because you start with defense. There was a time when all that a team required was a dominant defense. That time has passed. But your chances go way up if you start there.

rgw said:

Almost every other program needs a guy with Tua Tagovailoa's projections just to get in position to win a title.

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I can get that, to the extent that if they can have a good season, avoid mistakes, and try to find enough of a running game the QB (I have to add the caveat that I was emphasizing over-reliance on passing itself), not can carry a contender. I understand that part. The flip side though is there's several of those any given year, and only one really makes it to challenge Alabama. With Alabama's brand, which I would argue is the current blueprint to success, I still think balance and protecting the football is as integral to success as solid QB play.

I'm saying this also as someone that looked at that 2013 offense before the season and thought to myself, wow is this the year Alabama becomes unstoppable? And I get the temptation to do that now, but it's usually not as simple as that. May be this time, I'd be happy if that was the case, but I don't think our expectations should get ahead of us. I'm still excited about the prospects though.

RedWave said:

Why does it still seem like you are doing all you can to argue the point that Jalen should get the starting nod?

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Because you didn't read a lot of my posts?

Let me make this clear. Tua should be the starter. Tua gives Alabama the best chance at winning a title. However, just because Alabama has Tua does not mean they'll never lose. It doesn't mean the championship is in the bag, and it certainly doesn't mean if Alabama falls short it would be Tua's fault (I don't blame AJ for 2013). Alabama will just have different obstacles to overcome this time around.

KrAzY3 said:

I can get that, to the extent that if they can have a good season, avoid mistakes, and try to find enough of a running game the QB can carry a contender. I understand that part. The flip side though is there's several of those any given year, and only one really makes it to challenge Alabama. With Alabama's brand, which I would argue is the current blueprint to success, I still think balance and protecting the football is as integral to success as solid QB play.

I'm saying this also as someone that looked at that 2013 offense before the season and thought to myself, wow is this the year Alabama becomes unstoppable? And I get the temptation to do that now, but it's usually not as simple as that. May be this time, I'd be happy if that was the case, but I don't think our expectations should get ahead of us. I'm still excited about the prospects though.
Because you didn't read a lot of my posts?

Let me make this clear. Tua should be the starter. Tua gives Alabama the best chance at winning a title. However, just because Alabama has Tua does not mean they'll never lose. It doesn't mean the championship is in the bag, and it certainly doesn't mean if Alabama falls short it would be Tua's fault (I don't blame AJ for 2013). Alabama will just have different obstacles to overcome this time around.

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In my defense, you have some really long posts, and many are tough to read (so are some of mine, so I get it). We agree on the next two points highlighted.

RedWave said:

In my defense, you have some really long posts, and many are tough to read

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Well, I didn't say you should.

I wouldn't recommend it.

Turning into sort of a krazy thread

Saban pretty much just said that Jalen isn't suited for the NFL. He criticized QBs who try to do too much themselves instead of getting the ball into the hands of other play makers on his team. He went on to say that QBs have to be able to do a lot after they have the ball in their hands, reading defenses quickly and making quick decisions with the ball - AFTER it is snapped.

I have to believe that Saban was talking to Jalen in that piece.

KrAzY3 said:

But, we are talking about Saban teams.

Explain this one. If a great passer is a sure fire trip to the title game, how is it that 3 out of 4 of the best Saban Alabama quarterback seasons didn't even make the title game?

How is it that Blake Sims, AJ, and GMac as a senior could fall short? They all threw the ball well, they all had great seasons passing, and I mean heck it's Alabama right? How can Alabama+a lot of passing yards not equal a championship? They didn't though. Blake threw for 3,500 yards his senior year, AJ cracked 3,000 yards for the first time his senior year, and GMac was 13 yards short of 3,000 his senior year...

I wasn't trying to make a benchmark when I pointed to top 100 in passing yards, just make a point that a prolific passing offense is not a sure fire way to win a championship or go undefeated.

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It's not simply the offense's fault that we didn't win those years. You're right that the window to a CFB NC is very narrow - which means the reasons for not winning are that much more numerous.

tusks_n_raider said:

Barrett/Jones

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Classy post...

Very classy.

colbysullivan said:

Classy post...

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:biggrin:

Stats are useful but they can also cloud almost any issue. Surely, every sane fan agrees that it is best to be productive in every facet of the game, including the passing game. What Saban wants to do on offense is to be able to pass and run the ball effectively. Bama can do that with Tua, it cannot do that with Jalen. I don't see how having him as QB can reduce Bama's chances for going 12-0.

Most agree that Tua is superior to Jalen in every facet of the passing game. I would add that though Jalen is a good runner, he is not much better than Tua. In fact, I think Tua has the edge in some aspects of the running or non-passing game: better decision maker in most situations including RPOs, far quicker, much better pocket presence. The only edge for Jalen is top-end speed as well as strength and Tua is strong himself. Tua even has the edge in intangibles because of his well founded confidence. IMO, I think the fear of Tua turning the ball over has been overrated at this point. It may turn out to be true, but it hasn't yet shown to be an issue and has not been nearly as bad as Jalen toward the end of '16, especially the '16 AU game.

As things stand now, I will be very surprised and almost shocked if Bama doesn't go 12-0 - and Tua only enhances that prospect. It's not just because of Tua, but IMO, he does greatly enhance Bama's chances over any other QB on the roster.

With Tua I think there's always a chance he could make a bad pass that would cost us a game but that's how it is with all good QB's. I think we'd all agree that Deshaun Watson was a pretty good QB but if we look at what happened in the final 6 minutes of Clemson's 2016 stunning 43-42 loss to Pitt at home one could say that Watson lost them the game. He threw for a monster 580 yards in that game but he had 3 INT's. With Clemson up 42-34 he threw an INT with under 6 minutes left which Pitt quickly converted and gave them the momentum in the final minutes to stop Clemson on their last possession, get the ball back and kick a FG to pull off the upset. Something like that could happen with Tua. That's why I think it's a bit silly of Dilfer or anyone to say we'd never lose with Tua. Nevertheless I'd much rather lose a game because of an ill-advised pass than lose a game because of an offense that cannot move the ball because of an ineffective passer.

B1GTide said:

Saban pretty much just said that Jalen isn't suited for the NFL. He criticized QBs who try to do too much themselves instead of getting the ball into the hands of other play makers on his team. He went on to say that QBs have to be able to do a lot after they have the ball in their hands, reading defenses quickly and making quick decisions with the ball - AFTER it is snapped.
I have to believe that Saban was talking to Jalen in that piece.

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I agree, and Tua is way ahead of Jalen in those areas.

PA Tide Fan said:

Nevertheless I'd much rather lose a game because of an ill-advised pass than lose a game because of an offense that cannot move the ball because of an ineffective passer.

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I think most would.

drwho said:

I agree, and Tua is way ahead of Jalen in those areas.

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To add to the conversation I went back and viewed again Matt Wyatt's video on the Mississippi State game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7ZNrjfLQMs

I come away with a couple of observations:

MSU had a great game plan against Alabama on both sides of the ball. They gave any QB a number of challenges to read where pressure was coming from and what coverage the defense would rotate into.

Wyatt made a point on how JH learned during the game, made adjustments and won the game late. Obviously he had flashes of being very effective to win the game.

The thoughts I come away with are:

On those plays at the end Jalen doesn't appear far from being a very effective QB

How much coaching help was he getting on the sidelines throughout the year vs. what a Lane Kiffen had provided him?

It is really impossible to know how Tua would have performed in such hostile situations as Tamu and MSU.

I understand that horse may have already left the barn with the second half of the NC game but I believe it is unreasonable not to expect Tua to have some of the same challenges particularly at Baton Rouge this upcoming season.

CNS of course understands this better than anyone. It is easy to see why he would aspire to keep all three QB's on the team.

Looking back it appears that what was best for Hurts and what was best for the team were and are not the same. This goes back to KrAzY's comments about Hurts. For his benefit he should have been redshirted his freshman year to learn how to be a more accomplished QB, for the benefit of the team he needed to play since Barnett nor the other backups would have gotten us to the NC game. Now his lack of development will, in all likelihood, negatively affect the team, but still give him a chance to play QB in a backup role, for his benefit. I have no idea how this will play out, but I imagine he will rely on his father's advice to stay or leave.

BamaInBham said:

As things stand now, I will be very surprised and almost shocked if Bama doesn't go 12-0 - and Tua only enhances that prospect. It's not just because of Tua, but IMO, he does greatly enhance Bama's chances over any other QB on the roster.

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I think Bama probably goes 12-0 with Hurts starting this year. Schedule sets up about as favorably as it has in the last several years for us in the regular season.

Now, I obviously believe Tua will lead us to the same record, but I believe the style of football we'll play will be much more pleasing to everyone who watches. I know Tua will have to scramble out of the pocket and throw a few balls away or run a few out of bounds, but if I never see that play again it will be too soon.

FWIW, I think Mac Jones could probably lead us to a 12-0 record next year, but I'd rather not have to sit through what would likely be some closer games than if Tua was starting.

BamaMoon said:

I think Bama probably goes 12-0 with Hurts starting this year. Schedule sets up about as favorably as it has in the last several years for us in the regular season.

Now, I obviously believe Tua will lead us to the same record, but I believe the style of football we'll play will be much more pleasing to everyone who watches. I know Tua will have to scramble out of the pocket and throw a few balls away or run a few out of bounds, but if I never see that play again it will be too soon.

FWIW, I think Mac Jones could probably lead us to a 12-0 record next year, but I'd rather not have to sit through what would likely be some closer games than if Tua was starting.

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You say that but we could have some shootouts if our secondary is like the 2014 version. We do play offenses at home that have qbs that can cause some level of concern.