Alabama QB competition article

Bamabuzzard

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This was the "struck down on the road to Damascus" moment for me as well. After watching him in that game, I was of the opinion that you can't keep this type talent on the sidelines long. You have to find a way to play him. I'm certain if asked, Gary Danielson would point to the Vandy game as well. Especially seeing how he basically had to go clean himself after the game from fawning all over Tua. I'll never forget when he turned loose of that ball where he was spun around and hit the receiver in the back of the endzone. Danielson's "standing in awe" reaction. Unreal.



We have 2 years worth of evidence that Jalen wins the easy games and doesn't perform well against teams that can neutralize his running skills. When those teams force us to pass we don't make first downs, don't score as many points and we struggle to win (go watch the Washington and Clemson games in 2016).

I'm not basing my assumption that Tua starts on his second half performance against Georgia alone (although if that's all we had to gone on, it's good enough). I've thought Tua was a better passer (throwing ability alone) since the first pass we saw him throw last year during his A-day performance (remember how Kirk Herbstreit was drooling over him???). Of course, we also saw how our first team neutralized him in the second half of that game and so we knew he wasn't ready right then. But last fall, over the course of the year, we saw him growing and doing the other things great QB's do. After I saw "the play" against Vandy, I knew he had something Jalen didn't (and most other qbs don't). And then when he outplayed Jalen against UT (although he had the one, freak INT that got returned), I was convinced he had pretty much passed Jalen all around.

And then Georgia happened and the whole world now knows.
 

KrAzY3

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(go watch the Washington and Clemson games in 2016).
While there are truth to the general sentiments you expressed... those are not really the best examples of it.

Kiffin was calling some plays that were not really plays basically. So to be like hey look at how bad Hurts did when he was trying to run a gibberish play isn't really the best way to evaluate the situation. Furthermore the Clemson game was had issues with playcalling to, there were timing issues (can't really blame Sark either, one week prep time isn't sufficient to get play calling down) and Clemson figuring out some plays beforehand. Not many people would do well under either of those circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, there's truth to the idea that Hurts struggled to pass against better defenses, but there are also examples of situations he was thrust into that even Tua would have had some major issues with. Truth is I think part of his over-reliance on himself and risk aversion was a product of being placed in almost impossible situations like that. When you have a guy tell you to run a not-play, what the heck else are you going to do but wing it and try to make something happen on your own?
 
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RollTide_HTTR

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While there are truth to the general sentiments you expressed... those are not really the best examples of it.

Kiffin was calling some plays that were not really plays basically. So to be like hey look at how bad Hurts did when he was trying to run a gibberish play isn't really the best way to evaluate the situation. Furthermore the Clemson game was had issues with playcalling to, there were timing issues (can't really blame Sark either, one week prep time isn't sufficient to get play calling down) and Clemson figuring out some plays beforehand. Not many people would do well under either of those circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, there's truth to the idea that Hurts struggled to pass against better defenses, but there are also examples of situations he was thrust into that even Tua would have had some major issues with. Truth is I think part of his over-reliance on himself and risk aversion was a product of being placed in almost impossible situations like that. When you have a guy tell you to run a not-play, what the heck else are you going to do but wing it and try to make something happen on your own?
The LSU game that year might be a better example.
 

Tenntiderman

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I am a big fan of all our players, but anybody could see Jalen was struggling. Just like in baseball (pitching), film teaches tendencies and Jalen's are now common knowledge. Tua's are a little harder to predict because of that lightning release. That SHOULD benefit the running backs in several ways. Gotta say though...that I would be pleased to see Jalen light it up. Both seem like outstanding young fellows who will succeed no matter what they do in life. 2 winners.
 

BamaMoon

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Gotta say though...that I would be pleased to see Jalen light it up. Both seem like outstanding young fellows who will succeed no matter what they do in life. 2 winners.
No doubt about it. Unfortunatley, sometimes when a debate about two players is going on it sounds personal. I'm sure sometimes it is, but it shouldn't be.

I can only speak for myself, but I think Jalen is one classy, upstanding young man who has handled this whole experience from starting his first two years to being a cheerleader for Tua as good as I've ever seen from a player who probably knows he is getting passed by.
 

The Ols

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I agree. I also seem to remember Jalen appearing almost "relieved" on the sideline during the NCG when Tua took over. We are incredibly blessed to have these two remarkable young student/athletes, but I think that Tua gives us a better chance @ 18 in '18!...and Jalen's expression on the sideline was my "....road to Damascus" moment. RTR!!!
No doubt about it. Unfortunatley, sometimes when a debate about two players is going on it sounds personal. I'm sure sometimes it is, but it shouldn't be.

I can only speak for myself, but I think Jalen is one classy, upstanding young man who has handled this whole experience from starting his first two years to being a cheerleader for Tua as good as I've ever seen from a player who probably knows he is getting passed by.
 

KrAzY3

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Gotta say though...that I would be pleased to see Jalen light it up.
While I have to say I think that ship has sailed at Alabama... there's no "good" scenario in which Hurts starts for Alabama. The only way now is if Tua is injured.

I really wanted Tua to redshirt, and that might seem dumb or naive, but part of that was I got how good Tua could be. I just hoped, and I have to admit overall I was wrong but I think some factors were working against Hurts, that Hurts could put things together while Tua saved his eligibility and developed on the bench. I knew a battle for the starting job was coming at some point, I just wanted that delayed, perhaps for some misguided loyalty toward Hurts. Or may be I wanted to have my cake and eat it to, even the biggest Hurts detractors have to admit Alabama still came really close to a title with Hurts, and I still think with just a little more going his way he'd have had what it took to win.

With Hurts, I think it has become a story of half fact half fiction. I'd say he was SEC Player of the year, someone else would counter about his limitations at the position. I'd point out he's a top rated quarterback, and someone would counter he struggles making reads. I'd say he's a great leader, and someone could point out he lost the locker room. I could point out that he lead Alabama to comebacks against Ole Miss and Miss. State and someone else would point out he struggled in losses to Auburn and Clemson. There's this real glass half empty glass half full thing with Hurts.

Even with me personally, there was this roller coaster of, there's no way a true freshman would start for Alabama, that's bad for his development, to after the spring game saying yeah, he might start. Then, on the flip side I go from no way he should lose his starting job, look at all the things he's done to yeah, Tua needs to come into the game. It's kind of amazing that he's manage to both defy my expectations and then fall short of them. I'm inclined though to point at musical chairs at OCs, to point out the pressure of the situation, the fact that he's still a teenager, still younger than basically everyone else that started a full season under Saban. But you can't unring that bell. I don't see a way for things to change while he's at Alabama, not unless something really bad happens, so I'm actually torn between wanting him as one of the best backups in college football, and wanting him to go transfer, use his redshirt year, and get his shot at developing into the quarterback I still think he can become.

The real amazing thing here is he's one of the most prolific quarterbacks in Alabama history, and he could still be on a college campus for three more years! He's already lead the team to two title games. There's this alternate reality out there in which Hurts is on track to become one of if not the greatest college football quarterback ever. That might sound nuts, but a few things go differently and he'd have two titles right now. I looked up Alabama stats, and Jalen Hurts is already #2 in total TDs at Alabama. He's second only to AJ, who made 19 more in one more season. He's third in total yards, behind two players who started three seasons. Strictly as a passer though, he's also made his mark. He's 4th in passing TDs, but only 7 from second place. It's hypothetically possible he takes second place as a backup. He's also 8th in passing yards. No matter what, he's already had an amazing career at Alabama.
 

JustNeedMe81

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While I have to say I think that ship has sailed at Alabama... there's no "good" scenario in which Hurts starts for Alabama. The only way now is if Tua is injured.

I really wanted Tua to redshirt, and that might seem dumb or naive, but part of that was I got how good Tua could be. I just hoped, and I have to admit overall I was wrong but I think some factors were working against Hurts, that Hurts could put things together while Tua saved his eligibility and developed on the bench. I knew a battle for the starting job was coming at some point, I just wanted that delayed, perhaps for some misguided loyalty toward Hurts. Or may be I wanted to have my cake and eat it to, even the biggest Hurts detractors have to admit Alabama still came really close to a title with Hurts, and I still think with just a little more going his way he'd have had what it took to win.

With Hurts, I think it has become a story of half fact half fiction. I'd say he was SEC Player of the year, someone else would counter about his limitations at the position. I'd point out he's a top rated quarterback, and someone would counter he struggles making reads. I'd say he's a great leader, and someone could point out he lost the locker room. I could point out that he lead Alabama to comebacks against Ole Miss and Miss. State and someone else would point out he struggled in losses to Auburn and Clemson. There's this real glass half empty glass half full thing with Hurts.

Even with me personally, there was this roller coaster of, there's no way a true freshman would start for Alabama, that's bad for his development, to after the spring game saying yeah, he might start. Then, on the flip side I go from no way he should lose his starting job, look at all the things he's done to yeah, Tua needs to come into the game. It's kind of amazing that he's manage to both defy my expectations and then fall short of them. I'm inclined though to point at musical chairs at OCs, to point out the pressure of the situation, the fact that he's still a teenager, still younger than basically everyone else that started a full season under Saban. But you can't unring that bell. I don't see a way for things to change while he's at Alabama, not unless something really bad happens, so I'm actually torn between wanting him as one of the best backups in college football, and wanting him to go transfer, use his redshirt year, and get his shot at developing into the quarterback I still think he can become.

The real amazing thing here is he's one of the most prolific quarterbacks in Alabama history, and he could still be on a college campus for three more years! He's already lead the team to two title games. There's this alternate reality out there in which Hurts is on track to become one of if not the greatest college football quarterback ever. That might sound nuts, but a few things go differently and he'd have two titles right now. I looked up Alabama stats, and Jalen Hurts is already #2 in total TDs at Alabama. He's second only to AJ, who made 19 more in one more season. He's third in total yards, behind two players who started three seasons. Strictly as a passer though, he's also made his mark. He's 4th in passing TDs, but only 7 from second place. It's hypothetically possible he takes second place as a backup. He's also 8th in passing yards. No matter what, he's already had an amazing career at Alabama.
I agree.
 

gman4tide

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Agree with all that! Only thing i'll say is some of Jalen's passing stats have been padded with those jet/pop passes his freshman year under kiffin. No read, no risk, 99% completion rate and all those yards (and however many td's) went towards his stats on a "pass" that he did nothing more than touch.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Agree with all that! Only thing i'll say is some of Jalen's passing stats have been padded with those jet/pop passes his freshman year under kiffin. No read, no risk, 99% completion rate and all those yards (and however many td's) went towards his stats on a "pass" that he did nothing more than touch.
That was on my mind as I read Krazy's post...
 

KrAzY3

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Agree with all that! Only thing i'll say is some of Jalen's passing stats have been padded with those jet/pop passes his freshman year under kiffin. No read, no risk, 99% completion rate and all those yards (and however many td's) went towards his stats on a "pass" that he did nothing more than touch.
Not trying to use you as an example, but that's kind of what I mean with the whole half fact half fiction thing. What I said is true, what you said is true, but both create different conclusions. I know the stat though, or close to it, I believe it was something like 900 yards from plays behind the LOS his first season. I could go into a lengthy discussion though, about how some of those were in fact actual passes, and how I was mad when Daboll removed them because they still created real, actual yards and touches, or that plenty of other college quarterbacks do them a lot as well... but I think it just describes the situation perfectly. For every good or bad thing you could say about Hurts, there's a counter. We can't ignore his accomplishments, they're real, but we can't ignore his faults either. He is polarizing though clearly because if you say anything bad or good about him, there's a compulsion to counter that.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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Not trying to use you as an example, but that's kind of what I mean with the whole half fact half fiction thing. What I said is true, what you said is true, but both create different conclusions. I know the stat though, or close to it, I believe it was something like 900 yards from plays behind the LOS his first season. I could go into a lengthy discussion though, about how some of those were in fact actual passes, and how I was mad when Daboll removed them because they still created real, actual yards and touches, or that plenty of other college quarterbacks do them a lot as well... but I think it just describes the situation perfectly. For every good or bad thing you could say about Hurts, there's a counter. We can't ignore his accomplishments, they're real, but we can't ignore his faults either. He is polarizing though clearly because if you say anything bad or good about him, there's a compulsion to counter that.
I will agree that I also wondered what happened to the jet sweep. Locksley could have drawn them up and coached them...
 

BamaMoon

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Not trying to use you as an example, but that's kind of what I mean with the whole half fact half fiction thing. What I said is true, what you said is true, but both create different conclusions. I know the stat though, or close to it, I believe it was something like 900 yards from plays behind the LOS his first season. I could go into a lengthy discussion though, about how some of those were in fact actual passes, and how I was mad when Daboll removed them because they still created real, actual yards and touches, or that plenty of other college quarterbacks do them a lot as well... but I think it just describes the situation perfectly. For every good or bad thing you could say about Hurts, there's a counter. We can't ignore his accomplishments, they're real, but we can't ignore his faults either. He is polarizing though clearly because if you say anything bad or good about him, there's a compulsion to counter that.
The issue is Jalen was good at what he did best (using his legs), but what he did best didn't make the team around him better (OL, RBs and Receivers) and eventually became a way for better teams to scheme against us.

Compare that to Tua and he's going to make the OL look better, RBs get more touches and yards, and receivers catch alot more passes for yards and tds. I don't think that's a half fact/half fiction thing, it was just the reality.

And yes, the lack of pop passes stats really became a real part of the narrative last year under Daboll. We can debate the rhyme and reason but it exposed Jalen's true weakness as a downfield passer.
 

gtgilbert

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While I have to say I think that ship has sailed at Alabama... there's no "good" scenario in which Hurts starts for Alabama. The only way now is if Tua is injured.

I really wanted Tua to redshirt, and that might seem dumb or naive, but part of that was I got how good Tua could be. I just hoped, and I have to admit overall I was wrong but I think some factors were working against Hurts, that Hurts could put things together while Tua saved his eligibility and developed on the bench. I knew a battle for the starting job was coming at some point, I just wanted that delayed, perhaps for some misguided loyalty toward Hurts. Or may be I wanted to have my cake and eat it to, even the biggest Hurts detractors have to admit Alabama still came really close to a title with Hurts, and I still think with just a little more going his way he'd have had what it took to win.

With Hurts, I think it has become a story of half fact half fiction. I'd say he was SEC Player of the year, someone else would counter about his limitations at the position. I'd point out he's a top rated quarterback, and someone would counter he struggles making reads. I'd say he's a great leader, and someone could point out he lost the locker room. I could point out that he lead Alabama to comebacks against Ole Miss and Miss. State and someone else would point out he struggled in losses to Auburn and Clemson. There's this real glass half empty glass half full thing with Hurts.

Even with me personally, there was this roller coaster of, there's no way a true freshman would start for Alabama, that's bad for his development, to after the spring game saying yeah, he might start. Then, on the flip side I go from no way he should lose his starting job, look at all the things he's done to yeah, Tua needs to come into the game. It's kind of amazing that he's manage to both defy my expectations and then fall short of them. I'm inclined though to point at musical chairs at OCs, to point out the pressure of the situation, the fact that he's still a teenager, still younger than basically everyone else that started a full season under Saban. But you can't unring that bell. I don't see a way for things to change while he's at Alabama, not unless something really bad happens, so I'm actually torn between wanting him as one of the best backups in college football, and wanting him to go transfer, use his redshirt year, and get his shot at developing into the quarterback I still think he can become.

The real amazing thing here is he's one of the most prolific quarterbacks in Alabama history, and he could still be on a college campus for three more years! He's already lead the team to two title games. There's this alternate reality out there in which Hurts is on track to become one of if not the greatest college football quarterback ever. That might sound nuts, but a few things go differently and he'd have two titles right now. I looked up Alabama stats, and Jalen Hurts is already #2 in total TDs at Alabama. He's second only to AJ, who made 19 more in one more season. He's third in total yards, behind two players who started three seasons. Strictly as a passer though, he's also made his mark. He's 4th in passing TDs, but only 7 from second place. It's hypothetically possible he takes second place as a backup. He's also 8th in passing yards. No matter what, he's already had an amazing career at Alabama.
I think almost everyone sees that dichotomy you describe and in IMO, much of it revolves around a few key things:

1. As others have said, jalen feasted his first year with jet sweeps that looked like passes, but are not indicative of real passing ability. Those also got to be less and less effective as his first year progressed to the point many of us were quite vocal against that play continuing to be a part of the gameplan.
2. Jalen started out well in 16 and we were running a very different offense than we were in 15. There was no tape, and no tendencies that DCs could evaluate and better game plan around. Toward the end of 16, DCs with better defenses figured those things out and were able to figure out ways to pretty effectively stop him and the rest of the offense. The things Jalen was reading to make plays became very obvious, and teams could basically force Jalen into specific plays based on how they played it, then if they had good enough athletes, they could really limit things.
3. In both 16 and 17, the SEC was not as good as many other years, and against this level of competition, Jalen does just fine. When we did get into the few teams who had good defenses, the limitations Jalen has in passing became glaringly obvious and a significant limiter to the team.

net, with Jalen we would likely win a lot of games, but we'd continue to struggle against better teams who both know how to and have the athletes to create a unified game plan against us which basically accepts that we'd get a few big plays to score, but focuses on limiting our ability to sustain drives. Basically teams bet that every 4 or 5 possessions they would probably give up a huge play likely for a TD, but that the majority of the other drives would be 3 and out and start wearing out our defense and also frustrating the rest of the offensive players.
 

pigsinspace

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Jalen has been to QB camps and has had coaching in how to be a pro style passer. However, he has yet to put those skills into action on the field. His instincts say run and make things happen. As we have seen, good defenses can shut that down more often than not. To make it as a pro style QB, he needs to set aside his instincts and essentially force himself to do the things that he has learned. It is up to him to prove that he has not peaked as a QB and can make plays like Tua. I won't automatically assume that Jalen can't get any better, but his time for proving himself at Bama is tight.
 

The Ols

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Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the simpler one is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is.
I think maybe we're just over analyzing it. Simple fact seems to be that Tagovailoa is just a better qb.
 

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