Such a dark memory, but instead of dwelling on that I think we should all strive to be like Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.
Today marks the 50th anniversary of the My Lai Massacre
- Thread starter crimsonaudio
- Start date
This reminds me of an example I saw that a chaplain hosted in basic training.
The chaplain had, oh, maybe 20 folks get up in a circle around him and - like a smooth politician - he set up a scenario that SEEMED harmless enough at the time. So in the first step down the path he gave the situation and asked how many would ignore it or do nothing and how many would follow their moral code, rules, whatever.
Of those 20, ONLY TWO at that first step held to their convictions. He mocked and ridiculed them and told them they were embarrassments and to sit down, they weren't going to do anything because they wouldn't "play ball." He weaved the scenario on and at each phase people dropped out at different points as the situation got worse. Eventually, of course, someone (or several) gets killed as a result of that first step, second step, etc.
The chaplain then made this point: every single person had a certain level at which they were no longer willing to assent to and tolerate the deception. He then called the two he'd sat down after the first step and made this very point: if you would have stuck to those convictions at phase one (which most professed to have) then nobody would have gotten hurt in the first place. But he also pointed out how much you could lose - including a career - by doing the right thing. He then had us applaud the two "idealists."
And for the record - Calley was wrong, but he was also a scapegoat.
The chaplain had, oh, maybe 20 folks get up in a circle around him and - like a smooth politician - he set up a scenario that SEEMED harmless enough at the time. So in the first step down the path he gave the situation and asked how many would ignore it or do nothing and how many would follow their moral code, rules, whatever.
Of those 20, ONLY TWO at that first step held to their convictions. He mocked and ridiculed them and told them they were embarrassments and to sit down, they weren't going to do anything because they wouldn't "play ball." He weaved the scenario on and at each phase people dropped out at different points as the situation got worse. Eventually, of course, someone (or several) gets killed as a result of that first step, second step, etc.
The chaplain then made this point: every single person had a certain level at which they were no longer willing to assent to and tolerate the deception. He then called the two he'd sat down after the first step and made this very point: if you would have stuck to those convictions at phase one (which most professed to have) then nobody would have gotten hurt in the first place. But he also pointed out how much you could lose - including a career - by doing the right thing. He then had us applaud the two "idealists."
And for the record - Calley was wrong, but he was also a scapegoat.
Makes you wonder how many other atrocities happened in Vietnam that were never reported or covered up. Courage comes in many forms.
Calley was a 2LT who didn't act alone. He was wrong, but he was by far NOT the only one.
Way too many.
Now to be fair to the guys at the time......they weren't nearly as well-versed in Geneva Convention as they should have been. That was the only "positive" that came out of that (and even as I said that I cringe because I know what it sounded like).
Not gunning down civilians including old women and young children should have been understood with or without an understanding of Geneva.
No argument here. But easy to say that in a war where kids approached US troops who tried to be nice and the little girl is carrying and explosive doll, too. More than one Vietnam vet has made that particular point - this wasn’t WW2 with rational Western Europeans.
I’m in no way defending anything that was done there, but it’s also easy to Monday morning QB and think from the standpoint of non combatants.
The fact that this cane out is proof e had guys who DID know and practice right from wrong.
He "got away" with it in the sense that he didn't go to prison or get executed.
But he got more than a life sentence, too - a hundred years from now his name will be a symbol that lives on of what NOT to do. His name will ALWAYS be tied the shameless killing at My Lai. Just as the name Judas Iscariot is inextricably linked with betrayal, the name William Calley is inextricably linked with military war crimes.
That is easy to say, unfortunately no one knows how they will react until they are in the situation. I doubt any US service members went to Vietnam and thought, “man, I can’t wait to go massacre women and children”. And then women and children whom you have tried to help and have been friendly to start killing your buddies with tricks, it takes a lot of discipline not to want revenge.
For example, look at the “Blackhearts” episode in Iraq 2007. A lonely Platoon assigned too much area to cover is isolated, has no down time, is given little support, has had their PL killed along with respected NCOs. One where an Iraqi civilian who had been very friendly one day just walks up and shoots him in the head with a pistol. Guys beheaded in their trucks at their checkpoints at night. Patrols that go out every day knowing they are going to get hit by an IED again today. 4 man checkpoints alone for weeks with minimal leadership presence. It was easy for some of those guys to start thinking of every Iraqi as the enemy- men, women, and children. To dehumanize them. And then one team at an isolated checkpoint decided to “get revenge” and rape and murder an Iraqi family.
Service members, especially leadership, have to be proactive in instilling that not everyone is the enemy, and that both the enemy and the civilian population are the same as you and me. I don’t think that was understood as well in Vietnam as it is now.
At no point have I defended William Calley.
But as I've said about the South regarding race - he "wasn't singing a solo."
I agree, to a point. However the slaughter at My Lai was so horrendous that there can be no excuse there. Its one thing to have confusion resulting in 'collateral damage'. Its quite another to knowingly massacre innocents.
Wasn’t meant to be an excuse. Just saying that it is probably easier for normal people to slide down the path to committing atrocities and war crimes than we would care to admit.I agree, to a point. However the slaughter at My Lai was so horrendous that there can be no excuse there. Its one thing to have confusion resulting in 'collateral damage'. Its quite another to knowingly massacre innocents.
I had an uncle that was in Viet Nam. He was a Marine.
I've heard so many stories about little kids and young women over there setting up ambushes and getting U.S. Soldiers killed as a result. You didn't always know who the enemy was because a lot of the Viet Cong didn't wear uniforms.
This is not to condone ANY straight up Massacre but the fact is that the enemy was certainly not signed on with the Geneva Convention and committed plenty of atrocities as well.
In things like this we will never really and truly know what happened there on that day. Did one of the women/children make a move that could be considered threatening? Could this particular group of soldiers just recently been ambushed due to being set up by a child or a women/women? We don't know.
Again, not condoning a straight up massacre but until you've been there don't be too quick to judge.
And I agree with others that the 2nd Lieu was not the one (in all likelihood) that made the call, so to speak.
I've heard so many stories about little kids and young women over there setting up ambushes and getting U.S. Soldiers killed as a result. You didn't always know who the enemy was because a lot of the Viet Cong didn't wear uniforms.
This is not to condone ANY straight up Massacre but the fact is that the enemy was certainly not signed on with the Geneva Convention and committed plenty of atrocities as well.
In things like this we will never really and truly know what happened there on that day. Did one of the women/children make a move that could be considered threatening? Could this particular group of soldiers just recently been ambushed due to being set up by a child or a women/women? We don't know.
Again, not condoning a straight up massacre but until you've been there don't be too quick to judge.
And I agree with others that the 2nd Lieu was not the one (in all likelihood) that made the call, so to speak.
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