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  1. #27
    BamaNation Hall of Fame cbi1972's Avatar
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    Re: Pastor fired for inappropriate images on church computer, hired by a crosstown ch

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromBama View Post
    Well taken, and I agree.

    But isn't this the epitome of the "Saul Alinsky" style attacks on faith so common in our culture today?

    I've seen this kind of "argument" (or some variation) raised almost constantly most of my adult life. It typically seems to go something like this:
    "IF you profess to follow this supposed Jesus Christ, who you claim was perfect, but if you (or for that matter, if ANY other professing Christian) are/is Not perfect, then you are a hypocrite AND all of Christianity (and by extension ALL faith of any sort, but ESPECIALLY Christianity) is all bunk and hokum, pure superstition and unworthy of any consideration by any "Logical" and "Rational" person like me."

    That's pretty much the "argument" being made (if only by implication) in the linked article and here in this thread, isn't it?

    Now - beyond that, there's a lot that could be discussed here from a theological perspective, but I've gathered in my few visits that this forum isn't very welcoming to people of faith, so I'll just leave it there.....
    Hypocrisy is just the lowest hanging fruit. Nobody has a problem with someone who strives to be a good person and encourages that in others. It's when such is accompanied by threats of eternal damnation for failing to abide by a specific set of rules that the mockery hits home when such a person flagrantly fails to live up to the same rules. That's not going to change, either.
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  3. #28
    BamaNation All-American Intl.Aperture's Avatar
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    Re: Pastor fired for inappropriate images on church computer, hired by a crosstown ch

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    With all due respect.....

    Pastors are indeed all too human. But even should it just be a guy who likes a nice ample setting of DDs (and really, what guy doesn't?), the fact remains that the standards for a church pastor are incredibly high and include being a one-woman man (1 tim 3). Sure, we all struggle with it but that's where the line of demarcation is, too. Maybe I'm naive but it seems to me there's a difference coming across a site with a provocative picture (not necessarily nude - goodness, you can see Russian women here on TF looking for men, with apologies to TW) and STORING this on your computer. What's that for, your later release?

    The whole story permits MSDNC to float the idea that, "hey, maybe he's Sandusky/Jared Jr!"

    I'm of the view the church is to be a hospital for sinners not a haven for the saints but the standards laid down are also clear. Very few actually meet them and that's how God intended it.
    Oh, we are in complete agreement!

    I in no way meant for my statement to be used as a pardon for his errors. It's still not acceptable for a pastor to do that sort of thing.

    I was sort of "jumping the route," to use a football term, in regards to the way these conversations tend to go on the TF,NS whenever we talk about a misbehaving pastor.

    Usually everyone jumps in and beats up on the pastor in question, and rightfully so. I just wanted to make a distinction between the huge and often unthinkable crimes and sins often attributed to mega-church pastors on here and the more common kind of error like this pastor made. Sin is sin, (Rom 6:23) but even so we can draw a distinction between murder and a speeding ticket. That example is gross hyperbole, but hopefully you take my point.

    That distinction in no way absolves this pastor from his behavior as, regardless of his moral frailty, he is still called to a higher standard.
    “And what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man.”
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  4. #29
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Pastor fired for inappropriate images on church computer, hired by a crosstown ch

    This is chasing a rabbit but I simply think there's too many full time paid positions within the church. I even struggle back and forth with rationalizing the need for any full time staff in our Western culture. Heck the Apostle Paul forfeited his right and earned his own keep. Full time staff easily lose touch with the secular world and in many cases their members as well. They cannot relate. I completely get the "Don't muzzle the ox" verse in scripture and it gets brought up to me by anyone in the ministry who is defending their position and pay within the church.

    I agree the Bible teaches that those who work in the ministry have the right to have their needs met by the ministry. However, is there not any reasonable limits on this? In my opinion that verse is meant for the worker to have their basic needs met by the church. Not provide a lifestyle, that in many cases are far greater than a lot of their members. And back to the "Don't muzzle the ox" verse so frequently used by the clergy. The idea in the verse is for the ox to eat from the garden he's helping plow. Not eat the whole dang garden. I think there are too many pastors (and I'm not even talking about the mega church pastors) who are doing more eating than plowing.


    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Although "youth ministry" goes back to the earliest days of secondary education in the early 1800s, this more recent thing with youth ministry came in part out of young troops returning from WW2 but still being "youth" (e.g. you have a 17-year old who goes to war and comes back 19 or 20 and still isn't old enough to vote or be an adult for the most part by the standards of the time but has immense world experience). Some got a volunteer opportunity to help, it also became a way for a young just out of seminary pastor to either intern while he was there or to get his feet wet in ministering to almost adults. And the whole drive behind it in a lot of cases was missionary zeal and the fact that about 70% of the involved youth in church leave upon HS graduation and never come back. The youth leader in many cases did the planning for the trips/functions to keep the young folks busy and out of the back seats of cars (at least that one night a week).

    And the other thing that happened was at one time about 80% of churches DID have a paid (not enough to live on) youth minister and you have pastors just out of seminary where the youth pastorate was the first job so they could (presumably) get to work on paying back them student loans God inspired them to take.

    I took a course on this whole thing in seminary and one of the big things was that the problem with youth ministry is that many times the person who actually WANTS to do youth ministry is the oversized kid who never grew up and likes to go play putt-putt or paintball with the folks about five years younger. It's a sort of if he WANTS to do it then he's likely immature.

    A lot of churches used to require them to be married for the very reason you cite.
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  5. #30
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Pastor fired for inappropriate images on church computer, hired by a crosstown ch

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    This is chasing a rabbit but I simply think there's too many full time paid positions within the church. I even struggle back and forth with rationalizing the need for any full time staff in our Western culture. Heck the Apostle Paul forfeited his right and earned his own keep. Full time staff easily lose touch with the secular world and in many cases their members as well. They cannot relate. I completely get the "Don't muzzle the ox" verse in scripture and it gets brought up to me by anyone in the ministry who is defending their position and pay within the church.

    I agree the Bible teaches that those who work in the ministry have the right to have their needs met by the ministry. However, is there not any reasonable limits on this? In my opinion that verse is meant for the worker to have their basic needs met by the church. Not provide a lifestyle, that in many cases are far greater than a lot of their members. And back to the "Don't muzzle the ox" verse so frequently used by the clergy. The idea in the verse is for the ox to eat from the garden he's helping plow. Not eat the whole dang garden. I think there are too many pastors (and I'm not even talking about the mega church pastors) who are doing more eating than plowing.
    The thing is this: on the whole MOST churches in America (as in about 99% of them) have 200 members or fewer. There aren't that many churches - in reality - where the pastor has this Joel Osteen-like lifestyle and most struggle to make ends meet. Of course, you DO have abuse and one of the problems in many modern churches (esp of my Baptist persuasion) is that their ecclesiology (doctrine of church) is not biblical but is instead an extended form of American vote at the polls democracy. The ancient church taught and practiced a PLURALITY of elders (e.g. leadership by team for those who don't know what I mean) precisely to prevent a situation like a single leader accumulating power and embezzling money. Or as happened in my parents' hometown in 2001, setting the church on fire to cover up your embezzlement.
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  6. #31
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Displaced Bama Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Pastor fired for inappropriate images on church computer, hired by a crosstown ch

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  7. #32
    BamaNation Hall of Fame DzynKingRTR's Avatar
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    Re: Pastor fired for inappropriate images on church computer, hired by a crosstown ch

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    The thing is this: on the whole MOST churches in America (as in about 99% of them) have 200 members or fewer. There aren't that many churches - in reality - where the pastor has this Joel Osteen-like lifestyle and most struggle to make ends meet. Of course, you DO have abuse and one of the problems in many modern churches (esp of my Baptist persuasion) is that their ecclesiology (doctrine of church) is not biblical but is instead an extended form of American vote at the polls democracy. The ancient church taught and practiced a PLURALITY of elders (e.g. leadership by team for those who don't know what I mean) precisely to prevent a situation like a single leader accumulating power and embezzling money. Or as happened in my parents' hometown in 2001, setting the church on fire to cover up your embezzlement.
    Do you have any better suggestions for covering up embezzlement?
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