Another HS shooting - Santa Fe, TX (South of Houston)

MattinBama · May 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
You said there were school shootings before social media so its impact was unknowable. I said there were mass killings before handguns so does that mean the impact of the handgun is also unknowable?

Of course not. It sounded like you were blowing off the impact of social media in that post.

Wasn't blowing it off just pointing out that this stuff also happened before social media. So saying would this particular kid have killed without social media is unknowable.

CajunCrimson said:
2007 was also the election of Obama. I wonder what impact his election had on suicide rates if any.

Excellent example of the kind of stuff that I was just saying was a problem in our society. What a weird statement.

Bazza · May 19, 2018

MattinBama said:
No doubt social media has had a negative impact but I believe it's more of a symptom (or amplification) of a multitude other societal problems that we have allowed to happen starting long before social media. Dumbing down of our country, decline in parenting, a free society that jails more people than most (maybe all I can't remember the stat) countries, crappy wages/wealth divide/economic issues, having crazy conspiracy theories to start being amplified on talk radio & then exponentially more on the internet, growing political divide that helps ensure problems aren't easily fixed, as well as a variety of others.

Even excluding social media look at most forums, video games, chat rooms, comment sections etc and you will see so much toxicity, hate, & anger being spewed out all day everyday from people that hate their lives and are looking to lash out. It's no shock that it continues to come out into the real world.

Deleting social media isn't going to stop it. The anger, hate, hopelessness, etc is already there.

Excellent post, Matt. I bolded a part that I think fuels a lot of this. People who hate their lives and tend to just lash out at everything and everyone.

I really don't know if any of this will ever change. I can't think of a fix. I used to think that the media could help, but as was mentioned to me, we need to look in the mirror.....the media is just a reflection of what society wants to hear. It's like we are destined to destroy ourselves.

That link from Alexander Fan post #132 is also in play:
http://deeprootsathome.com/kids-bored-entitled/

Given all of this - it changes how one perceives these shooting incidents a bit, doesn't it.

I've said from the very beginning that we will never stop stuff like this. They will always be with us. Especially as long as all the conditions you pointed out in your post remain intact. Change all of that and maybe we get somewhere.

But how?

92tide · May 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
https://twitter.com/abc/status/997663167961620480

At the school or near the school?

in the school parking lot. graduation ceremonies were occurring last night.

https://twitter.com/abc/status/997662627965931521

92tide · May 19, 2018

Bazza said:
Excellent post, Matt. I bolded a part that I think fuels a lot of this. People who hate their lives and tend to just lash out at everything and everyone.

I really don't know if any of this will ever change. I can't think of a fix. I used to think that the media could help, but as was mentioned to me, we need to look in the mirror.....the media is just a reflection of what society wants to hear. It's like we are destined to destroy ourselves.

That link from Alexander Fan post #132 is also in play:
http://deeprootsathome.com/kids-bored-entitled/

Given all of this - it changes how one perceives these shooting incidents a bit, doesn't it.

I've said from the very beginning that we will never stop stuff like this. They will always be with us. Especially as long as all the conditions you pointed out in your post remain intact. Change all of that and maybe we get somewhere.

But how?

i wouldn't be so negative. other countries seemed to have figured out how not to have continual mass shootings. america is exceptional.

Bamaro · May 19, 2018

Bazza said:
What is a "gun culture"?

And how did we get there?

You say it's because of the NRA?

How so?

I'm truly interested....thanks....

Gun culture refers to how people relate to guns overall. To me, guns are simply a tool. I own them but dont collect them. Many treat guns like I treat classic cars, collecting, going to shows etc. Thats part of it. There are many parts to it.
How we got there, Im not sure but its at least partially related to the 2nd amendment and our earlier need for simple guns to provide food and protection.
The NRA is a problem because of how they blindly support all aspects of guns with zero consideration of results and then 'buy' support in congress and state legislatures through their extensive lobbying.
Thats a partial answer to your questions but certainly not a complete answer.

CajunCrimson · May 19, 2018

92tide said:
i wouldn't be so negative. other countries seemed to have figured out how not to have continual mass shootings. america is exceptional.

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/c...m-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

I thought this was interesting....

92tide · May 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/c...m-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

I thought this was interesting....

i'm sure you did find it interesting

CajunCrimson · May 19, 2018

92tide said:
i'm sure you did find it interesting

Yeah, 12th in Frequency and that's just comparing us and Canada to the EU. I imagine if we compared all countries ---- we'd be pretty far down the list. So - going back to your original comment --

other countries seemed to have figured out how not to have continual mass shootings. america is exceptional.

That may not be the case....at least if you believe this data.

92tide · May 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
Yeah, 12th in Frequency and that's just comparing us and Canada to the EU. I imagine if we compared all countries ---- we'd be pretty far down the list. So - going back to your original comment --

That may not be the case....at least if you believe this data.

there's your problem

AUDub · May 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/c...m-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

I thought this was interesting....

Don't bite

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-shootings/

"The CPRC ranking shared by Fox News mostly accurately presents the average annual death rate from mass shootings, as defined by the CPRC, between 2009 and 2015. However, those figures are actually highly misleading, and use a particular type of statistical average to create the false impression that mass shootings are less frequent and less deadly in the United States than in European countries.

In reality, mass shootings are rare outside the United States — even in the sixteen countries listed by Lott where there was a mass shooting between 2009 and 2015, and even after accounting for population size. But on the rare occasions when mass shootings do take place in European countries, they give rise to a relatively high annual mass shooting death rate in those years because of the comparatively small populations of those countries. "

92tide · May 19, 2018

AUDub said:
Don't bite

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-shootings/

"The CPRC ranking shared by Fox News mostly accurately presents the average annual death rate from mass shootings, as defined by the CPRC, between 2009 and 2015. However, those figures are actually highly misleading, and use a particular type of statistical average to create the false impression that mass shootings are less frequent and less deadly in the United States than in European countries.

In reality, mass shootings are rare outside the United States — even in the sixteen countries listed by Lott where there was a mass shooting between 2009 and 2015, and even after accounting for population size. But on the rare occasions when mass shootings do take place in European countries, they give rise to a relatively high annual mass shooting death rate in those years because of the comparatively small populations of those countries. "

you post this like it will matter.

Mystical · May 19, 2018

My thoughts and prayers go out to the mothers and fathers who have lost a child. No one should have to hear their child died at school. My heart breaks for them.

CajunCrimson · May 19, 2018

AUDub said:
Don't bite

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-shootings/

"The CPRC ranking shared by Fox News mostly accurately presents the average annual death rate from mass shootings, as defined by the CPRC, between 2009 and 2015. However, those figures are actually highly misleading, and use a particular type of statistical average to create the false impression that mass shootings are less frequent and less deadly in the United States than in European countries.

In reality, mass shootings are rare outside the United States — even in the sixteen countries listed by Lott where there was a mass shooting between 2009 and 2015, and even after accounting for population size. But on the rare occasions when mass shootings do take place in European countries, they give rise to a relatively high annual mass shooting death rate in those years because of the comparatively small populations of those countries. "

This sentence has a lot of merit. Look at the size of our country 360M+ to the size of these smaller countries that we are often compared to.....(yes I'm adding in 20-30M for those that are not counted in the Census)

This chart on the snopes link you posted (not sure if it will copy correctly)

2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Total Mean Median
Albania 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 4 0.57 0
Austria 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 4 0.57 0
Belgium 0 0 6 0 0 4 0 10 1.43 0
Czech Rep. 0 0 0 0 0 0 9 9 1.29 0
Finland 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0.71 0
France 0 0 0 8 0 0 150 158 22.57 0
Germany 13 0 0 0 0 0 0 13 1.86 0
Italy 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 0.57 0
Macedonia 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 5 0.71 0
Netherlands 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 6 0.86 0
Norway 0 0 69 0 0 0 0 69 9.86 0
Russia 0 0 0 6 6 0 0 12 1.71 0
Serbia 0 0 0 0 13 0 6 19 2.71 0
Slovakia 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 7 1 0
Switzerland 0 0 0 0 4 0 4 8 1.14 0
U.K. 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 12 1.71 0
U.S.A. 38 12 18 66 16 12 37 199 28.43 18

Where it shows the deaths in the US compared to each of the countries individually...

But, if you do the math --

2009 - US - 38 deaths
2009 - the EU - 18 deaths

2010 - US - 12 deaths
2010 - EU - 19 deaths

2011 - US - 18 deaths
2011 - EU - 81 deaths

2012 - US - 66 deaths
2012 - EU - 19 deaths

2013 - US - 16 deaths
2013 - EU - 27 deahts

2014 - US - 12 deaths
2014 - EU - 8 deaths

2015 - US - 37 deaths
2015 - EU - 173 deaths

Yes -- on a country by country basis -- it looks lopsided....

But when you add the EU together --

US 199
EU 375

Population of the US - 360M
Population of the EU - 508M

and those are numbers that Snopes uses .....

If you want to go "like for like" -- The population of Norway is about 5M. The population of Alabama is about 5M......

Comparing the entire US to single EU countries isn't really a fair comparison --

but -- I do want to say -- "thank you" for having a genuine discussion. I respect that about you..... I also want to say -- I do think we have WAY too many of these shootings in our country. As a father of four daughters -- I'm scared on a daily basis that one of them gets unlucky and a part of a tragedy such as this.

But I also know that the solution isn't getting rid of guns. In a country as large as ours, with as many freedoms as we have....removing guns will just cause those who are intent on causing destruction to find another way. Guns may make it easier/faster -- but as we've seen, guns can also save lives in the hands of the right person.

seebell · May 19, 2018

Thanks, Cajun. I appreciate your posts and find the data interesting.

AUDub · May 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
This sentence has a lot of merit. Look at the size of our country 360M+ to the size of these smaller countries that we are often compared to.....(yes I'm adding in 20-30M for those that are not counted in the Census)

This chart on the snopes link you posted (not sure if it will copy correctly)

2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Total Mean Median
Albania 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 4 0.57 0
Austria 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 4 0.57 0
Belgium 0 0 6 0 0 4 0 10 1.43 0
Czech Rep. 0 0 0 0 0 0 9 9 1.29 0
Finland 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0.71 0
France 0 0 0 8 0 0 150 158 22.57 0
Germany 13 0 0 0 0 0 0 13 1.86 0
Italy 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 0.57 0
Macedonia 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 5 0.71 0
Netherlands 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 6 0.86 0
Norway 0 0 69 0 0 0 0 69 9.86 0
Russia 0 0 0 6 6 0 0 12 1.71 0
Serbia 0 0 0 0 13 0 6 19 2.71 0
Slovakia 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 7 1 0
Switzerland 0 0 0 0 4 0 4 8 1.14 0
U.K. 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 12 1.71 0
U.S.A. 38 12 18 66 16 12 37 199 28.43 18

Where it shows the deaths in the US compared to each of the countries individually...

But, if you do the math --

2009 - US - 38 deaths
2009 - the EU - 18 deaths

2010 - US - 12 deaths
2010 - EU - 19 deaths

2011 - US - 18 deaths
2011 - EU - 81 deaths

2012 - US - 66 deaths
2012 - EU - 19 deaths

2013 - US - 16 deaths
2013 - EU - 27 deahts

2014 - US - 12 deaths
2014 - EU - 8 deaths

2015 - US - 37 deaths
2015 - EU - 173 deaths

Yes -- on a country by country basis -- it looks lopsided....

But when you add the EU together --

US 199
EU 375

Population of the US - 360M
Population of the EU - 508M

and those are numbers that Snopes uses .....

If you want to go "like for like" -- The population of Norway is about 5M. The population of Alabama is about 5M......

Comparing the entire US to single EU countries isn't really a fair comparison --

but -- I do want to say -- "thank you" for having a genuine discussion. I respect that about you..... I also want to say -- I do think we have WAY too many of these shootings in our country. As a father of four daughters -- I'm scared on a daily basis that one of them gets unlucky and a part of a tragedy such as this.

But I also know that the solution isn't getting rid of guns. In a country as large as ours, with as many freedoms as we have....removing guns will just cause those who are intent on causing destruction to find another way. Guns may make it easier/faster -- but as we've seen, guns can also save lives in the hands of the right person.

Damn. Too late. He bit.

CajunCrimson · May 19, 2018

AUDub said:
Damn. Too late. He bit.

Last time you get a compliment from me.....

AlexanderFan · May 19, 2018

CajunCrimson said:
Last time you get a compliment from me.....

Can't you just accept the USA is a war zone?

I like how the post doesn't tell you what is out of line with the data, just tells you to not believe it.

A quick Google of "is Snopes reliable" is quite interesting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MattinBama · May 19, 2018

AlexanderFan said:
A quick Google of "is Snopes reliable" is quite interesting.

It is quite interesting.

Right near the top it has this article: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/03/meme-falsely-claims-exposed-snopes-com/

Showing some of the efforts out there to try & discredit the site with lies.

crimson fan man · May 19, 2018

Don't thank its all but I believe a lot of it stems from being bullied. Getting even in today's society with social media and with the ability to kill people that put you through it is a hell of a draw. Its not the gun laws I don't think but the fact of getting stuff bottled up with no release. Its not like when I was young and the P.E. teacher would put 16oz gloves on a couple of students and let you fight your disagreement out. With those heavy gloves on you would be friends about 2 minutes later. Theses days that same teacher would be thrown in prison.

No facts to support this belief just an opinion.

Tidewater · May 20, 2018

One good thing about the recent tragedies (I know that that phrase looks awful) is that Democrats have rediscovered federalism.
If the federal government refuses to act, they now see that states can. Some states have acted.
One solution I would suggest is gun safes. My Canadian colleague told me that provincial law in his province is that guns must be locked up when not in use and the ammo must be stored elsewhere.
This arrangement would have prevented Sandy Hook and Galveston. I do not believe it would be rule unconstitutional by a federal judge (although you never can tell what is happening inside a federal judge's brain or what will come out of it).

Another HS shooting - Santa Fe, TX (South of Houston)

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