Cracks are forming in the PAC-12 Conference.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

I read that last week, but think that their biggest problem is one that they simply cannot overcome - they are on the west coast, 2 or 3 hours behind the largest college football TV markets. IMO, they should shift to playing very early games (for them) to increase viewers. With viewers comes attention.

As for winning - hire better head coaches. This stuff comes in cycles. You have to ride out the ebbs.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

IMO, their primary problem is that they just don't have enough people who care. Thus, less income. Larry Scott has acknowledged that the reason that have to schedule such tough OOC games is because it's the only way that they can get people in the seats. Time zone is an issue, but if they had enough who cared locally that problem would also lessen. IMO, this is likely a permanent condition. It has already started to snowball in that more of their kids are leaving to play in the SEC and elsewhere rather than the reverse which was once the norm.

I'm surprised that anyone can stay with the SEC. You have to give the Big 10 a lot of credit. Demographics and pro sports are against them, but their college support has remained fairly strong. The Big 12 is only saved by OU and the possible return of UTx. The ACC is in the Southeast, in the midst of a lot of talent and some programs who care. But IMO, the SEC should be more dominant than it is. It has an advantage in almost everything.

I hope the PAC 12 can remain viable. IMO, they have usually had the best Xs and Os coaching, especially on offense. They have usually been more fair than other regions to Alabama over the years. The sample size is very small but Bama has had very good success vs their top programs on the big stage. That is always an endearing quality :smile:.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

Time zone and the NFL are probably the biggest issues with the PAC 12. I think they are far more stable than the BIG XII but nowhere near as supported as the SEC, BIG 10, and ACC. They benefit more with Thursday and late Saturday night games.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

BamaInBham said:

IMO, their primary problem is that they just don't have enough people who care. Thus, less income. Larry Scott has acknowledged that the reason that have to schedule such tough OOC games is because it's the only way that they can get people in the seats. Time zone is an issue, but if they had enough who cared locally that problem would also lessen. IMO, this is likely a permanent condition. It has already started to snowball in that more of their kids are leaving to play in the SEC and elsewhere rather than the reverse which was once the norm.

I'm surprised that anyone can stay with the SEC. You have to give the Big 10 a lot of credit. Demographics and pro sports are against them, but their college support has remained fairly strong. The Big 12 is only saved by OU and the possible return of UTx. The ACC is in the Southeast, in the midst of a lot of talent and some programs who care. But IMO, the SEC should be more dominant than it is. It has an advantage in almost everything.

I hope the PAC 12 can remain viable. IMO, they have usually had the best Xs and Os coaching, especially on offense. They have usually been more fair than other regions to Alabama over the years. The sample size is very small but Bama has had very good success vs their top programs on the big stage. That is always an endearing quality :smile:.

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True. In many areas of the South/SEC country, football is king. Out West, in many of the PAC 10 areas(UCLA, USC, Cal are in L.A......Stanford is in San Francisco metro area), there is just WAY too much going on to keep peoples' interests. There are very few SEC schools located in huge metro areas(Nashville, maybe??).

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

They have problems, but that story is pretty ridiculous. The media loves nothing more than to predict your downfall. I’m sure some genius already has a story written about the decline of the SEC every time we don’t win a football championship. If their trend is the same in about two decades then I’ll believe it is more than a natural cycle.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

RollTARDIS said:

They have problems, but that story is pretty ridiculous. The media loves nothing more than to predict your downfall. I’m sure some genius already has a story written about the decline of the SEC every time we don’t win a football championship. If their trend is the same in about two decades then I’ll believe it is more than a natural cycle.

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Yep....


1) http://www.thesportscol.com/2017/01/sec-college-footballs-empire-in-decline/

2) https://bhsbeat.org/1647/sports/downfall-of-the-s-e-c/

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

RollTARDIS said:

They have problems, but that story is pretty ridiculous. The media loves nothing more than to predict your downfall. I’m sure some genius already has a story written about the decline of the SEC every time we don’t win a football championship. If their trend is the same in about two decades then I’ll believe it is more than a natural cycle.

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The problem - for the Pac 12 - is that this trend is already a couple of decades long.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

It's cultural IMO. The SEC girl says it best "Here, it just means more."

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

Bamabuzzard said:

I know most people hear can't stand Colin Cowherd but he's been saying this for years about the "empty seats" at USC games, UCLA games and other PAC-12 games. People in the south take this as an insult (even though I really don't think that's what he's doing), but Cowherd has routinely said "There's more to do on the west coast than in the south." He gave an example for someone living in California and said "Someone can drive an hour or so north and get mountains and hiking, or an hour or so southwest and get the beautiful beaches and the ocean, along with all the other non sports entertainment that isn't present in the south."

I saw this first hand when an old HS classmate of mine married a guy from Washington state. She was born and raised in the south, a "southern girl" who grew up on hunting and fishing with her daddy, college football, friday night HS football and pep rallies etc. However, since she's gotten married and moved out west she's even admitted (via social media) that she doesn't keep up with college football near as much. Her and her husband do a lot of hiking, camping, they drive south into California and go to the beach. There's simply much more to do.

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There's some truth to this at a particular level.

I lived out there for a year and think about it: with the time zone difference, it's VERY difficult to be a broad-based college fan if you grew up on the Coast. I used to awaken about 9 am every Saturday morning in the central time zone, maybe 0930. Do that on the West Coast and the first quarter is nearly over if they've run the ball a lot.

GameDay spends all day covering non-West Coast games. So you have time to drive an hour and so something - surf, rapelling, mountain climbing, sky diving, something - the weather is usually good enough and you can drive out and do that, drive back and still be in front of the TV for your 745 pm USC-Oregon St kickoff.

COLLEGE football will never be outside the Southeastern USA what it is inside the Southeastern USA. It's just like ice hockey is never gonna catch on in Dallas (even though we won a Cup) like it does in Edmonton.

Some of the things they can't fix. Those states are also bigger so traveling to road games isn't overly feasible, either, esp if they're on Thursday night.

An in-state Alabama fan can drive to at least 1/2 of the SEC road venues in 4-5 hours no matter where he or she lives in the state (and if you live in just the right location, virtually all of them save Mizzou and ATM.

A CFB fan living in Fresno can easily make HOME games with Cal or Stanford but while it's feasible MILEAGE-wise to go to the USC or UCLA road games, you still have to deal with that insanity known as LA traffic (unless, of course, you're fleeing cops in a white Bronco).

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

I'd have to concur a lot of the cultural and time zone differences. It's interesting though, because many of my Alabama friends and my wife would tell me how much College Gameday kept talking about USC ad-nauseam when they were at the top of the Pete Carroll years, and now, my family complains the same about CGD talking about Alabama ad-nauseam.

I think it's much more cultural than time zone issues. For a majority of Pac-12s history, USC is the only college football program that can match the SEC in fandom and championships, and even then, many Southerners will be let down by USC fandom in Los Angeles. I remember attending a top 10 matchup game in the Coliseum when Pete Carroll was coaching, evening kickoff, and the stadium was only 2/3 full at kickoff. To be frank, if the Dodgers or Lakers are having better seasons, they'll get a bigger draw than USC (or UCLA during the 1990s). There is more to do that distracts from football, but there are a lot of hiking and camping activities available in the South as well. That's why I say it's more cultural; it just means more here in the South than elsewhere.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

Redwood Forrest said:

The PAC12 is a far-flung empire rivaled by the MWC and both have the time zone issues which the others do not have..

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I honestly have no idea how or why Hawaii even has a college teams in any sport. It is a 5 hour plane ride just from LA.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

CaliforniaTide said:

I'd have to concur a lot of the cultural and time zone differences. It's interesting though, because many of my Alabama friends and my wife would tell me how much College Gameday kept talking about USC ad-nauseam when they were at the top of the Pete Carroll years, and now, my family complains the same about CGD talking about Alabama ad-nauseam.

I think it's much more cultural than time zone issues. For a majority of Pac-12s history, USC is the only college football program that can match the SEC in fandom and championships, and even then, many Southerners will be let down by USC fandom in Los Angeles. I remember attending a top 10 matchup game in the Coliseum when Pete Carroll was coaching, evening kickoff, and the stadium was only 2/3 full at kickoff. To be frank, if the Dodgers or Lakers are having better seasons, they'll get a bigger draw than USC (or UCLA during the 1990s). There is more to do that distracts from football, but there are a lot of hiking and camping activities available in the South as well. That's why I say it's more cultural; it just means more here in the South than elsewhere.

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All we need to know about LA sports fans...(notice the brake lights of the poor sap who is missing perhaps the most dramatic home run in baseball history......other than maybe Bobby Thompson's.....)

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

selmaborntidefan said:

There's some truth to this at a particular level.

I lived out there for a year and think about it: with the time zone difference, it's VERY difficult to be a broad-based college fan if you grew up on the Coast. I used to awaken about 9 am every Saturday morning in the central time zone, maybe 0930. Do that on the West Coast and the first quarter is nearly over if they've run the ball a lot.

GameDay spends all day covering non-West Coast games. So you have time to drive an hour and so something - surf, rapelling, mountain climbing, sky diving, something - the weather is usually good enough and you can drive out and do that, drive back and still be in front of the TV for your 745 pm USC-Oregon St kickoff.

COLLEGE football will never be outside the Southeastern USA what it is inside the Southeastern USA. It's just like ice hockey is never gonna catch on in Dallas (even though we won a Cup) like it does in Edmonton.

Some of the things they can't fix. Those states are also bigger so traveling to road games isn't overly feasible, either, esp if they're on Thursday night.

An in-state Alabama fan can drive to at least 1/2 of the SEC road venues in 4-5 hours no matter where he or she lives in the state (and if you live in just the right location, virtually all of them save Mizzou and ATM.

A CFB fan living in Fresno can easily make HOME games with Cal or Stanford but while it's feasible MILEAGE-wise to go to the USC or UCLA road games, you still have to deal with that insanity known as LA traffic (unless, of course, you're fleeing cops in a white Bronco).

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Good summary.

ETA: Yet with hunting and fishing and such in the South and the dedication to those things by the population college football is still bigger, even in areas with professional sports.

In Alabama you can go to work in June and college football is a topic of conversation. Here, the day after the CFPCG and not a mention.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

CaliforniaTide said:

I'd have to concur a lot of the cultural and time zone differences. It's interesting though, because many of my Alabama friends and my wife would tell me how much College Gameday kept talking about USC ad-nauseam when they were at the top of the Pete Carroll years, and now, my family complains the same about CGD talking about Alabama ad-nauseam.

I think it's much more cultural than time zone issues. For a majority of Pac-12s history, USC is the only college football program that can match the SEC in fandom and championships, and even then, many Southerners will be let down by USC fandom in Los Angeles. I remember attending a top 10 matchup game in the Coliseum when Pete Carroll was coaching, evening kickoff, and the stadium was only 2/3 full at kickoff. To be frank, if the Dodgers or Lakers are having better seasons, they'll get a bigger draw than USC (or UCLA during the 1990s). There is more to do that distracts from football, but there are a lot of hiking and camping activities available in the South as well. That's why I say it's more cultural; it just means more here in the South than elsewhere.

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This ^^^ Frankly, the idea that the West Coast is the only place in America where there are outdoor activities worth doing is a bit of a stretch. Within the traditional SEC footprint we have abundant hunting, fishing, boating, off-roading, caving, motorsports, mountains, beaches, lakes, rivers, estuaries, wildlife preserves and national forests, to name just a few. Maybe its not ALL within a one hour drive - but lets be honest! That's NOT the case for the bulk of the people out west, either.

IMO, the issue is VASTLY more about the culture than about "diversions".

FWIW, your experience at USCw mirrors what I experienced at Stanford back in 2010. I was in Berkeley for business and drove down to a game in Palo Alto. This was also a Top-10 matchup. It was in November (we were playing LSu the same weekend) - Stanford was playing Arizona for the division lead with an inside track to the PAC Championship. The stadium was maybe 2/3 full, and the excitement level was about comparable to A-Day in Tuscaloosa.

I was stunned.

You can have all the fancy marketing and gimmicks you want - if the culture doesn't care, it just doesn't care.

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

I'm sure the assortment of things to do on the west coast has something to do with it, as has been stated.

But, for southerners, it's not just the game, it's the months and weeks (time we are in right now) waiting for the season. It's the "media days," it's the day players report, the day practice starts, the August practice reports, the week of gameday, the Saturday morning on campus that's filled with sights, sounds, smells and food, it's the pregame and all it's pageantry and traditions, it's the game, postgame and postweek discussions about the game and then it starts all over the next week for about 4 months (almost 5 if you are a Bama fan). After the season it's the recruiting season, Spring practice and game and then it all starts over again. Did I leave anything out?

Re: Cracks are forming is the Pac-12 Conference.

Major college football on the west coast is a 40,000 to 50,000-seat sport. For cultural and demographic reasons (justified or not), that is simply what the market will bear. Those with larger stadiums than that will have a lot of empty seats when their teams aren't good or perhaps if the matchups aren't compelling. I don't look down on them because of it, but it is fair game to remind them of it when they try to argue that their product is better than ours.

The gap in cultural preeminence between the Pac 12 footprint and the SEC (and Big 10 to a large extent) makes the Pac 12 Network less lucrative than the other conference networks. It is compounded by the time zone issue. Chasing good first- and second tier TV rights deals that remain in the same ballpark as the rest of the Power 5 means more weeknight games and late starting times for the marquee teams. Because there are very few Pac 12 matchups that measure up ratings-wise to the other conferences, hence the wacky start times.

Getting the Texas and perhaps Oklahoma schools would've solved their problems: dramatic increase in Pac 12 Network interest, better matchup inventory, and crucial Central Time Zone inventory. But with TV revenues flattening out and networks struggling to cope with cord-cutting (not to mention the Longhorn Network elephant in the room), I wonder if such an opportunity will ever present itself in the foreseeable future.

ESPN and Fox Sports essentially financed the last big round of realignment when they held the Big 12 harmless for losing valuable inventory while sweetening the pot for expanded leagues in subsequent renegotiations. I don't think the appetite to do it again is there.

I would not surprised at some point to see the Big 12 and Pac 12 try some scheduling alliance or shared television arrangement (short of an outright merger) to try to collectively squeeze out more media dollars.