New National Anthem Policy in the NFL

Tidewater

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well, unfortunately, much like was done with flag pins, freedom fries, and "blame america first" back in the simpler times of the w administration, this is being pushed as the anthem serving as a method to signal appropriate deference and "respect" for the state. you're either with it or against it.
If you want to question the state, I'm all for it. My loyalty to the state is commensurate to its loyalty to the Constitution, but the state is not the same thing as the country,
The anthem is, I believe, about celebrating what unites us, as a nation, without regard to race, creed, gender or country of origin. If it is now something that divides us, so be it. But let's not kids ourselves that ending this unifying tradition would be snapping yet another of the centripetal forces that holds these united states together.
Maybe the time has come to jettison the Union of these states. I'm not convinced that the jettisoning will improve the cause of human freedom, however. I suspect that those taking a knee during the anthem today might look back, years hence, and realize the folly of their action. (Not that taking a knee during the national anthem leads inevitably to dissolution of the Union and the subsequent chaos, but it is, I believe, unmistakably a step in that direction).

I could be wrong, however.
 

92tide

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If you want to question the state, I'm all for it. My loyalty to the state is commensurate to its loyalty to the Constitution, but the state is not the same thing as the country,
The anthem is, I believe, about celebrating what unites us, as a nation, without regard to race, creed, gender or country of origin. If it is now something that divides us, so be it. But let's not kids ourselves that ending this unifying tradition would be snapping yet another of the centripetal forces that holds these united states together.
Maybe the time has come to jettison the Union of these states. I'm not convinced that the jettisoning will improve the cause of human freedom, however. I suspect that those taking a knee during the anthem today might look back, years hence, and realize the folly of their action. (Not that taking a knee during the national anthem leads inevitably to dissolution of the Union and the subsequent chaos, but it is, I believe, unmistakably a step in that direction).

I could be wrong, however.
the only divisiveness i see is some folks telling other folks how they are supposed to act during the anthem and using it as a bludgeon to marginalize and insinuate that the one's not doing it the right way are somehow disrespecting our nation.
 

rgw

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It is a delicate line to find because it isn't that far from innocent patriotism to patriotism weaponized to advance a nationalist agenda. You may find patriotism that is not advancing a right-wing nationalist agenda but you're never gonna find right-wing nationalism without patriotism. This is why I always have a healthy dose of skepticism whenever someone makes a patriotic appeal in the political realm.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Well, those are arguments. However, I don't think they are winning arguments in court. On the question of the CBA, I don't know what's in it, so I can't give a definitive answer. However, I do know that, generally the CBAs have provided that, once the uniform is donned, the employer can guide and control one's behavior. IOW, you can protest outside the stadium in your civvies as much as you want. You just can't use the employer's uniform to emphasize your protest. So, IDK about this part, but I'm sure we'll find out.

The second part of the argument is even weaker. Trying to stand "Epic" on its head and argue that, since there are certain things which aren't protected, some much be, and this is one of them is absurd. I'm no labor lawyer, but, as I was reading, I was thinking "Why is this not a partial strike." I notice that he really struggled with that, finally saying that it was a silly doctrine, anyway. The partial strike rule came into being for a very good reason - sabotage. It just wasn't a very good idea to have POed employees on the floor, deciding what they would and would not do. If there's anything to his article at all, it will have to lie within the margins of the CBA.

All this said, I think the move was a mistake. It's really just going to exacerbate the situation...
 

CullmanTide

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At first I thought maybe it was the tradition of not having a President cause issues for private businesses repeatedly by opening his garbage hole or actively trying to attack them for political reasons... Or the tradition of not having a President fairly openly accepting bribes... Or the tradition of not having a President obstruct justice and attack the Justice Department on a daily basis... but then I realized it couldn't possibly be any of those traditions that they'd be worried about.
Obama?
 

Tidewater

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So the United States are Nazi Germany? Is that really his argument?

The beliefs of Nazi Germany were: disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system, fervent antisemitism, scientific racism and eugenics, [and] extreme nationalism, ... uniting all Germans living in historically German territory, as well as gain additional lands for German expansion under the doctrine of Lebensraum and exclude those who they deemed either community aliens or "inferior" races.

Compare that the the ideas that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and that "governments are instituted among men to secure these" "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Anybody who cannot distinguish between these two is too morally obtuse to converse with on the subject.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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Just wanted to check in this Memorial Day weekend and remind everyone here that I’m a better patriot than you are.

(I mean, isn’t that what this entire thing including this thread is basically about?)

I love my country more than you. Nobody loves it more than I. I am the most patriotic, ‘Murica defending patriot of patriots and none of you measure up to MY yuge patriotic self.

I say this humbly.
 
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Tidewater

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I spent this morning in Auschwitz (KL Auschwitz I, to be exact).
One of the things the Nazis did to Poland was to try and eradicate Polish culture, to wipe out the things that made Poland Poland. This would make their replacement of Poles with Germans easier. So the Nazis forbade teaching in the Polish language, displaying of any symbol that was distinctly Polish.
If the people of the U.S. allow the eradication or undermining of those things that should be proudly uniting all Americans as Americans, I think that will not end well. (Look at all the people on this very thread who profess not to care about the issue).

And Jon, there is an enormous difference between disagreeing with a particular government or governmental policy (which I agree is very American) and deliberately disrespecting your country.
This is not a small thing with no real meaning. Young people see these "leaders" and their behavior and wish to emulate them because they have been told how "courageous" they are, how disrespecting your country is somehow "making things better." I believe those who are deliberately disrespecting the nation are people acting despicably who should be shunned by any American of good will.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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Just FTR, I actually agreed with Davis losing her job based on that. Strangely enough, I believe Trump did as well.

Of course, I don't know what Trump "believed" as it changes minute by minute, but I think you know what I mean.

Btw - kudoes for this post of yours I saw the other night:

First question is can Trump win the nomination? Voters are eating up his populist message, and at the moment, no one seems to be seriously challenging him, which is a damning statement if you're GOP leadership. I thought Rubio might be able to make a run at him, but Rubio seems committed to spinning a gauzy American dream message, and the voters seem to be looking for a more aggressive message.

If he wins the nomination, he can win the presidency, because there is enough free-floating antipathy towards Hilary to overcome the fact that Trump has been pretty much all bluster to this point. There will only be a few sing states, and anything can happen.

You were dead on right, my man. Good call.

On the other hand, I (like so many) had incredible moments of stupid when it concerned the Orange One:

....
Furthermore, if Trump does anything less than win in Iowa - a state of organization and one-on-one campaigning - I think he's done anyway. And here is where Cruz has a major advantage because unlike Trump, he's actually run in a state race before.


I think it's positive that Trump has caused a freakout in the GOP because it forces candidates to have to listen to the public at large. Trump is feeding into that strain of populism that has produced temporary surge candidates like George Wallace, Pat Robertson in the 1988 GOP contest, Ross Perot, and Pat Buchanan. There's a segment of society that will rebel against 'politics as usual' all while ignoring the lack of substantive proposals from the populist demagogue. It's right when they propose something specific or make a public decision that they implode. (Although I was not alive, the implosion of the Wallace campaign in 1968 is traced in the polls to the moment he picked Curtis "Bombs Away" LeMay as his running mate and destroyed much of his internal support and freaked out people with LeMay talking Barry Goldwater-like about nuclear annihilation).

.........

I don't see Trump winning, but I agree with jthomas here - Trump has more of a chance than he would under NORMAL circumstances because the front-runner for the Democrats quite frankly is perhaps the most polarizing figure in the American electorate and is also not that good of a candidate (she's run one seriously contested race and she lost).
.....
I figure the election will be between Hillary and the winner of the Cruz-Rubio sweepstakes. But Bernie is going to win some early, too.
 
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92tide

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I spent this morning in Auschwitz (KL Auschwitz I, to be exact).
One of the things the Nazis did to Poland was to try and eradicate Polish culture, to wipe out the things that made Poland Poland. This would make their replacement of Poles with Germans easier. So the Nazis forbade teaching in the Polish language, displaying of any symbol that was distinctly Polish.
If the people of the U.S. allow the eradication or undermining of those things that should be proudly uniting all Americans as Americans, I think that will not end well. (Look at all the people on this very thread who profess not to care about the issue).

And Jon, there is an enormous difference between disagreeing with a particular government or governmental policy (which I agree is very American) and deliberately disrespecting your country.
This is not a small thing with no real meaning. Young people see these "leaders" and their behavior and wish to emulate them because they have been told how "courageous" they are, how disrespecting your country is somehow "making things better." I believe those who are deliberately disrespecting the nation are despicable people who should be shunned by any American of good will.
the kneeling is not an act of disrespect.
 

rgw

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NFL players aren't violating the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment by their personal expression while at work because their labor is not a state function.
 

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