St.Paul's Sues AHSAA over Discriminatory Rule.

TomFromBama

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You keep saying this, but it doesn't make sense. Yes, St. Paul's and Spanish Fort used to play one another, but that was when Spanish Fort was a much smaller school. How is this even relevant? It is not. This is like saying that if Sewannee had a football team they should be forced to play Bama since we used to play them in the 1930's? In my opinion this competitive balance thing is idiotic and the whiners are the ones who can't field a competitive team in their proper size classification, though it's not always their fault. I coached inner city high school baseball and the factors involved in whether or not we were successful were too many to name, and yeah, I would have liked to have dropped down and played at a lower classification, but I would have never let my kids know that.

I just don't see any equity in a school with 400 students playing schools with over 1000.

rtr
Things like "Equity", "Honesty" and "Logic" haven't been present in most of the "Pro-Equal-Outcomes" and "Anti-Excellence" posts in this thread, and that's sad. :(

Some Facts, since Facts have been in short supply around here:

FACT: St. Paul's has NEVER competed in Class 6A in Any sport - E V E R.

FACT: The Actual HS enrollment at SPS (Per AHSAA) is 310, which would normally be within 13 kids of class 3A. But with the "Multiplier" - SPS has already been playing (in effect) almost TWO Classifications above actual enrollment. (the largest school in 3A currently is counted as 297 students - 13 less than the actual HS enrollment at SPS).

FACT: The Smallest school in Region 1-5A, Jackson HS, is counted as 389 students by AHSAA, and the largest school in Region 1-5A, Citronelle HS, is counted as 601 students - - 291 more than SPS' actual enrollment.

FACT: SPS will now compete in football (and many other sports) in Class 6A-Region 1. The smallest 6A Region 1 school, BC Rain HS, is counted as 605 students. The largest schools in Region1-6A, Daphne HS And Robertsdale HS, are EACH counted as 953 students - OVER THREE TIMES the actual enrollment at SPS.

FACT: If, GOD FORBID, Tiny SPS with its 310 actual HS enrollment somehow makes the playoffs (and let's be honest- that's the REAL goal here - to PUNISH excellence) - Guess What? There are TEN (10) 6A schools Larger than Daphne and Robertsdale, including SEVEN (7) with enrollment Literally OVER ONE THOUSAND. So, it COULD actually be WORSE than the example at the end of your post! :eek:

But, according to the "brain trust" here, if you see any problem with 310 vs. 953 (or even vs. 1,045 for that matter), you are a "poor sport" and "Ducking competition". :rolleyes:

Funny that the same people who think it's a TRAGEDY for SPS (with 13 more total HS students than 3A) to win State Titles in FIVE-A (5A) in 3 of the past TEN (10) YEARS - ALSO think it's WONDERFUL that Alabama has won 5 of the last 9 National Championships!!
They will tell you with a straight face that it's ALL DIFFERENT, and none of them seem to have any CLUE of the immense IRONY of that position!!!! :rolleyes:


 

81usaf92

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Things like "Equity", "Honesty" and "Logic" haven't been present in most of the "Pro-Equal-Outcomes" and "Anti-Excellence" posts in this thread, and that's sad. :(

Some Facts, since Facts have been in short supply around here:

FACT: St. Paul's has NEVER competed in Class 6A in Any sport - E V E R.

FACT: The Actual HS enrollment at SPS (Per AHSAA) is 310, which would normally be within 13 kids of class 3A. But with the "Multiplier" - SPS has already been playing (in effect) almost TWO Classifications above actual enrollment. (the largest school in 3A currently is counted as 297 students - 13 less than the actual HS enrollment at SPS).

FACT: The Smallest school in Region 1-5A, Jackson HS, is counted as 389 students by AHSAA, and the largest school in Region 1-5A, Citronelle HS, is counted as 601 students - - 291 more than SPS' actual enrollment.

FACT: SPS will now compete in football (and many other sports) in Class 6A-Region 1. The smallest 6A Region 1 school, BC Rain HS, is counted as 605 students. The largest schools in Region1-6A, Daphne HS And Robertsdale HS, are EACH counted as 953 students - OVER THREE TIMES the actual enrollment at SPS.

FACT: If, GOD FORBID, Tiny SPS with its 310 actual HS enrollment somehow makes the playoffs (and let's be honest- that's the REAL goal here - to PUNISH excellence) - Guess What? There are TEN (10) 6A schools Larger than Daphne and Robertsdale, including SEVEN (7) with enrollment Literally OVER ONE THOUSAND. So, it COULD actually be WORSE than the example at the end of your post! :eek:

But, according to the "brain trust" here, if you see any problem with 310 vs. 953 (or even vs. 1,045 for that matter), you are a "poor sport" and "Ducking competition". :rolleyes:

Funny that the same people who think it's a TRAGEDY for SPS (with 13 more total HS students than 3A) to win State Titles in FIVE-A (5A) in 3 of the past TEN (10) YEARS - ALSO think it's WONDERFUL that Alabama has won 5 of the last 9 National Championships!!
They will tell you with a straight face that it's ALL DIFFERENT, and none of them seem to have any CLUE of the immense IRONY of that position!!!! :rolleyes:


FACT: Judge Steele says SPS should be in 6A despite St Paul’s flimsy Health angle.

FACT: SPS wasted a ton of legal fees for no reason

FACT: SPS is NOW a 6A team. So y’all need to deal with it.

FACT: AISA exists. So if you don’t like what’s happening there is room in AISA for snowflakes like the AINTS.

FACT: You are using a straw man argument to gain supporters to your side by using a college equivalent that doesn’t work.

FACT: End of story. The AHSAA won, you lost, now you have to drink the Boohoo sauce.
 
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B1GTide

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IMO, this image perfect summarizes this discussion. But, to be clear, both sides are looking to create a field slanted in their favor. Both are putting championships ahead of a level playing field. Private schools and larger public schools do it through "recruiting". Other schools do it by trying to eliminate teams that they cannot beat by forcing them off of their schedules, using every tool in their toolbox to make that happen.
 

bamamick

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FACT: Judge Steele says SPS should be in 6A despite St Paul’s flimsy Health angle.

FACT: SPS wasted a ton of legal fees for no reason

FACT: SPS is NOW a 6A team. So y’all need to deal with it.

FACT: AISA exists. So if you don’t like what’s happening there is room in AISA for snowflakes like the AINTS.

FACT: You are using a straw man argument to gain supporters to your side by using a college equivalent that doesn’t work.

FACT: End of story. The AHSAA won, you lost, now you have to drink the Boohoo sauce.
As I have tried to explain more than once, I have had no personal sympathy for St. Paul's in the past. My kids went to public school and competed against St. Paul's in multiple sports, but I have always tried to be fair in my dealings with everyone and anyone I am in contact with, and this 'competitive balance' stuff is petty jealousy personified and I find even though they will now be competing against the school my three kids graduated from years ago I find myself hoping that they are good enough to shove it in the face of the ASHAA. There is no way a school with their attendance should be competing against schools three times as large. And if you disagree let's just kill all of the classifications, period. Just have one state champion and be done with it. Explain to me why you wouldn't be in favor of that if you are in favor of a legit 4A school playing 6A football.

rtr
 

81usaf92

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As I have tried to explain more than once, I have had no personal sympathy for St. Paul's in the past. My kids went to public school and competed against St. Paul's in multiple sports, but I have always tried to be fair in my dealings with everyone and anyone I am in contact with, and this 'competitive balance' stuff is petty jealousy personified and I find even though they will now be competing against the school my three kids graduated from years ago I find myself hoping that they are good enough to shove it in the face of the ASHAA. There is no way a school with their attendance should be competing against schools three times as large. And if you disagree let's just kill all of the classifications, period. Just have one state champion and be done with it. Explain to me why you wouldn't be in favor of that if you are in favor of a legit 4A school playing 6A football.

rtr
Private schools have the AISA option. They don’t like the current state of the AHSAA then they can take their tails over to a PRIVATE SCHOOL ONLY league. Poor County schools with barely 30 players didn’t have that option when 100 man roster teams like Ben Russell and Homewood played the runaway from Hoover to 5A game. So again the Salty Saints can run to AISA if they don’t like the competitive balance or just continue to whine.

St Paul’s ( and Briarwood for that matter) have no business being in a poor county school classification. Maybe we should get rid of all 4 and 5A all together and have 4 teams. Y’all are making St Paul’s out to be this poor small private school that they aren’t. St Paul’s is more than capable of competing with SF and there is no stat that is going to disprove that.
 
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RedWave

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FACT: Judge Steele says SPS should be in 6A despite St Paul’s flimsy Health angle.

FACT: SPS wasted a ton of legal fees for no reason

FACT: SPS is NOW a 6A team. So y’all need to deal with it.

FACT: AISA exists. So if you don’t like what’s happening there is room in AISA for snowflakes like the AINTS.

FACT: You are using a straw man argument to gain supporters to your side by using a college equivalent that doesn’t work.

FACT: End of story. The AHSAA won, you lost, now you have to drink the Boohoo sauce.
FACT: You are being a bit of a jerk about this.

You realize that, at the end of the day, you are talking about kids here, right? You don't like that their kids beat some other kids in football, so you want to tell them to ignore the health issues which can not be denied and play against much bigger schools. And they are the Loser Aints for crying foul? I know, it is the parents, etc crying foul, but still. Your animosity toward the "haves," while understandable, should not override your compassion toward kids. If so, then unblue the first sentence in this post.
 
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81usaf92

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FACT: You are being a bit of a jerk about this.

You realize that, at the end of the day, you are talking about kids here, right? You don't like that their kids beat some other kids in football, so you want to tell them to ignore the health issues which can not be denied and play against much bigger schools. And they are the Loser Aints for crying foul? I know, it is the parents, etc crying foul, but still. Your animosity toward the "haves," while understandable, should not override your compassion toward kids. If so, then unblue the first sentence in this post.
Then where were your tears for those teams who had to endure Homewood and Ben Russell cooking their books in order to run from Hoover in order to play 30 player teams in route for state championships? Nowhere to be seen is the correct answer so spare me this bologna that you and your St Paul’s apologists have tried to push on us about how we who are for the ruling don’t care about the kids and y’all are all for the kids health and safety. Poor County and small city schools have endured this crap for years upon years, but no lawsuits no media attention was ever given to bring justice to the situation. So why is it that those poor public schools are supposed to feel sorry for a private school team that is more than capable of defending themselves against these bigger teams when for years those teams were just told to “shut up, color, and tough it out”.

The biggest reason no small public school isn’t going to care about St Paul’s complaint is due to St Paul’s ability to get up and move from the situation. Plain and simple private schools are guests in the AHSAA system. If they don’t agree with how their host acts then they can always leave. Poor County and small cities can’t because they are under the AHSAA no matter what . So if St Paul’s feels that there is a health issue then they need to get out and join the AISA. But I highly doubt that is the real reason and I’m certain deep down you know that too because they would’ve explored that option long ago if it was an issue.

Again they played practically the same schedule 5 years ago with all of the same schools in the classification. The 7A classification moved the monsters from 5A ( Ex. Homewood, Spanish Fort, & Ben Russell) up to 6A). So it’s not this all new league that y’all are making it out to be. They had a State Championship under the Super 6 with a 5A classification in 07.

Personally I would be in favor of dropping the multiplier and applying a competitive balance with both private and public schools from 3A- 6A and leave 7A to the true monsters, but it’s not going to happen. But this is the system we are in, and it’s more fair than what it has been.
 
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Titans&Tide

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Then where were your tears for those teams who had to endure Homewood and Ben Russell cooking their books in order to run from Hoover in order to play 30 player teams in route for state championships? Nowhere to be seen is the correct answer so spare me this bologna that you and your St Paul’s apologists have tried to push on us about how we who are for the ruling don’t care about the kids and y’all are all for the kids health and safety. Poor County and small city schools have endured this crap for years upon years, but no lawsuits no media attention was ever given to bring justice to the situation. So why is it that those poor public schools are supposed to feel sorry for a private school team that is more than capable of defending themselves against these bigger teams when for years those teams were just told to “shut up, color, and tough it out”.

The biggest reason no small public school isn’t going to care about St Paul’s complaint is due to St Paul’s ability to get up and move from the situation. Plain and simple private schools are guests in the AHSAA system. If they don’t agree with how their host acts then they can always leave. Poor County and small cities can’t because they are under the AHSAA no matter what . So if St Paul’s feels that there is a health issue then they need to get out and join the AISA. But I highly doubt that is the real reason and I’m certain deep down you know that too because they would’ve explored that option long ago if it was an issue.

Again they played practically the same schedule 5 years ago with all of the same schools in the classification. The 7A classification moved the monsters from 5A ( Ex. Homewood, Spanish Fort, & Ben Russell) up to 6A). So it’s not this all new league that y’all are making it out to be. They had a State Championship under the Super 6 with a 5A classification in 07.

Personally I would be in favor of dropping the multiplier and applying a competitive balance with both private and public schools from 3A- 6A and leave 7A to the true monsters, but it’s not going to happen. But this is the system we are in, and it’s more fair than what it has been.
I have to disagree that the competitive balance thing is fair. I don't know about St. Paul's or Briarwood or any of those schools. I live in 1A, not the big schools. But I do know how it isn't fair for the school my kids attend to field a team with 22 players against other 1A schools who field teams with 35. It doesn't matter how good your starters are, if a few get hurt, you're playing 8th graders with 22 kids on a team. If a school with a deeper roster has a few get hurt, they're still plugging in 10th and 11th graders.

The same logic applies to the big schools. Again, I don't know anything about these schools, but for the sake of argument, let's say St. Paul's has a roster of 35 kids. Yeah, their starters are great, and the rest are pretty good football players. They can sustain some injuries and such, but they will see a significant drop in performance between the 1s and 2s. Drops in performance lead to more injuries, by the way. So they have to routinely play schools with 60-80 kids dressed out. Their starters are also great, but so is their second team. They can absorb a lot more injuries and still be able to compete.

The point I'm trying to make is that the safety issue is a legitimate concern and to dismiss it as "sour grapes" is simply wrong. I've seen it up close and it isn't pretty when you have to worry about having enough healthy kids to even play the next week.
 

81usaf92

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I have to disagree that the competitive balance thing is fair. I don't know about St. Paul's or Briarwood or any of those schools. I live in 1A, not the big schools. But I do know how it isn't fair for the school my kids attend to field a team with 22 players against other 1A schools who field teams with 35. It doesn't matter how good your starters are, if a few get hurt, you're playing 8th graders with 22 kids on a team. If a school with a deeper roster has a few get hurt, they're still plugging in 10th and 11th graders.

The same logic applies to the big schools. Again, I don't know anything about these schools, but for the sake of argument, let's say St. Paul's has a roster of 35 kids. Yeah, their starters are great, and the rest are pretty good football players. They can sustain some injuries and such, but they will see a significant drop in performance between the 1s and 2s. Drops in performance lead to more injuries, by the way. So they have to routinely play schools with 60-80 kids dressed out. Their starters are also great, but so is their second team. They can absorb a lot more injuries and still be able to compete.

The point I'm trying to make is that the safety issue is a legitimate concern and to dismiss it as "sour grapes" is simply wrong. I've seen it up close and it isn't pretty when you have to worry about having enough healthy kids to even play the next week.
Again, there are a lot of 4 and 5A public schools that have 2 to 3A rosters facing 70-100 man rosters, but no one seems to complain about that with lawsuits and newsreels. The biggest difference between St Paul’s and Talladega is mobility. Talladega is forced to go up and play behemoths everytime someone that’s mid to border line 5A cooks their books and says they are a 4A and not a 5A. St Paul’s can say “ we are going to AISA because it’s not good for the kids”. See the difference. One has an option the other doesn’t.

Plus what is really going against St Paul’s is Briarwood not standing up for them. Briarwood is about a 3A body that plays 5A. Yet Briarwood for a time played in 6A against real monsters and didn’t complain about it. Madison Academy is also not complaining about moving up twice in 4years. I’m just not seeing where I can be really that sympathetic to St Paul’s when county schools in 4 and 5A have dealt with the same issues for decades that St Paul’s is dealing with now with bigger schools playing way smaller ones when St Paul’s has options to get out of their situation.

The CBF is a better tool imo than the multiplier. I would personally do away with the multiplier. But I would like the CBF be applied all the way around from 3A to 6A.
 
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RedWave

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Then where were your tears for those teams who had to endure Homewood and Ben Russell cooking their books in order to run from Hoover in order to play 30 player teams in route for state championships? Nowhere to be seen is the correct answer so spare me this bologna that you and your St Paul’s apologists have tried to push on us about how we who are for the ruling don’t care about the kids and y’all are all for the kids health and safety. Poor County and small city schools have endured this crap for years upon years, but no lawsuits no media attention was ever given to bring justice to the situation. So why is it that those poor public schools are supposed to feel sorry for a private school team that is more than capable of defending themselves against these bigger teams when for years those teams were just told to “shut up, color, and tough it out”.

The biggest reason no small public school isn’t going to care about St Paul’s complaint is due to St Paul’s ability to get up and move from the situation. Plain and simple private schools are guests in the AHSAA system. If they don’t agree with how their host acts then they can always leave. Poor County and small cities can’t because they are under the AHSAA no matter what . So if St Paul’s feels that there is a health issue then they need to get out and join the AISA. But I highly doubt that is the real reason and I’m certain deep down you know that too because they would’ve explored that option long ago if it was an issue.

Again they played practically the same schedule 5 years ago with all of the same schools in the classification. The 7A classification moved the monsters from 5A ( Ex. Homewood, Spanish Fort, & Ben Russell) up to 6A). So it’s not this all new league that y’all are making it out to be. They had a State Championship under the Super 6 with a 5A classification in 07.

Personally I would be in favor of dropping the multiplier and applying a competitive balance with both private and public schools from 3A- 6A and leave 7A to the true monsters, but it’s not going to happen. But this is the system we are in, and it’s more fair than what it has been.
Yeah. You can just remove the blue font from my earlier post in your mind. As for where was I when blah, blah, blah...the answer is I never saw a post about it here, and I do not live in Alabama. I simply came in this thread to read, took in the information, read all sides, and decided I think it is unfair what the AHSAA is doing in this case. The whole rule came from people who were tired of losing to schools their size, and made a rule to force those schools into a larger category that isn't their size. Seems like BS to me. We aren't going to force NDSU to play in the FBS, or that school from Second Chance U to move up to the FCS, or force Alabama into the NFL. I know it is not the same thing, but it sort of is. These teams got tired of losing and made a rule to where the teams that were winning had to leave. No matter how you look at it, it's crap. Now, I don't think it is totally out of line to move them up maybe one division to account for their ability to provide scholly's and recruit, but forcing them much further than that goes into the realm of ridiculous (Bama to the NFL ridiculous).
 
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81usaf92

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Yeah. You can just remove the blue font from my earlier post in your mind. As for where was I when blah, blah, blah...the answer is I never saw a post about it here, and I do not live in Alabama. I simply came in this thread to read, took in the information, read all sides, and decided I think it is unfair what the AHSAA is doing in this case. The whole rule came from people who were tired of losing to schools their size, and made a rule to force those schools into a larger category that isn't their size. Seems like BS to me. We aren't going to force NDSU to play in the FBS, or that school from Second Chance U to move up to the FCS, or force Alabama into the NFL. I know it is not the same thing, but it sort of is. These teams got tired of losing and made a rule to where the teams that were winning had to leave. No matter how you look at it, it's crap. Now, I don't think it is totally out of line to move them up maybe one division to account for their ability to provide scholly's and recruit, but forcing them much further than that goes into the realm of ridiculous (Bama to the NFL ridiculous).
I can’t remove the blue font from your earlier post only you or a moderator can. ;). *** kinda blue ***


Again the difference between “guests” and “residents ” is the key. The AHSAA is more or less for PUBLIC SCHOOLS meaning they are going to naturally be in favor of PUBLIC SCHOOLS. This usually translates to “some” public schools more than others but almost never any private school. The AISA is for PRIVATE SCHOOLS ONLY.

St. Paul’s can run from unfair treatment, small public schools can’t. If they don’t like it then by all means go to the AISA, but don’t come crying to poor county schools who have endured the same thing with far less talent and depth is the overall point I’m making. Yeah it sucks but they’ll have to get over it because the AHSAA isn’t going to change.
 
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